[ufo2012]

So what is the conclusion, can salvation be lost, or not?

[.eXe]

(Original post by ufo2012)
So what is the conclusion, can salvation be lost, or not?

It cannot. Salvation was given to humans when Jesus died.

[ufo2012]

(Original post by .eXe)
It cannot. Salvation was given to humans when Jesus died.

Very sweeping statement.

Makes it sound like everyone is automatically already on their way to heaven already as soon as Jesus died?

[.eXe]

(Original post by ufo2012)
Very sweeping statement.

Makes it sound like everyone is automatically already on their way to heaven already as soon as Jesus died?

Lol I think your definition of salvation is at fault here.

How do you define salvation? *Hint* salvation =/= automatic going to heaven

[When you see it...]

What would happen if, once you got into heaven, you started sinning? Would you get kicked out?

[ufo2012]

(Original post by .eXe)
Lol I think your definition of salvation is at fault here.

How do you define salvation? *Hint* salvation =/= automatic going to heaven

That is how I understand it.

But the way I read that previous comment almost suggests the belief that "everyone will be saved" regardless of whether they asked or not or what they did.

What is it they call that belief, is it universalism ?

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by cl_steele)
why do you insist on spamming threads with all your cods wallop?

Because I am conciously aware of the fact that hell exists, and others are not.

It lasts an eternity. If you were perfectly honest, you too would admit that deep down, at the back of your mind, there in your subconciousness you know it is true. But instead of letting the truth surface, you are holding it in unrighteousness. (Romans 1:18).

My friend, do you realise the implications of the reality?

After the first few trllions of years of torments you'll realise it's not even the beginning...

I would seriously investigate this if I were you.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils...erica/hold.htm

[Artymess]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
Because I know that Hell is real and others don't.

It lasts an eternity. If you were perfectly honest, you too would admit that deep down, at the back of your mind, there in your subconciousness you know it is true. But instead of letting the truth surface, you are holding it in unrighteousness. (Romans 1:18).

My friend, do you realise the implications of the reality?

After the first few trllions of years of torments you'll realise it's not even the beginning...

I would seriously investigate this if I were you.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Evils...erica/hold.htm

You do not know hell is real - you merely believe it is. With no tangible or empirical evidence you cannot know it.

Being perfectly honest, I don't believe it exists. There is no evidence for it. To be honest it sounds truly ridiculous. It is just as likely as me going to Valhalla if I die in battle

However, let's assume it is real. Surely living a good life and being moral for the sake of avoiding damnation and entering paradise is not truly good, nor moral. I would argue that living a good life and being moral because it's the right thing to do - not for any afterlife reward - makes a better person

[pokemons]

Yes it happens when you go to the Organisation of Church

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by Artymess)
You do not know hell is real - you merely believe it is. With no tangible or empirical evidence you cannot know it.

Being perfectly honest, I don't believe it exists. There is no evidence for it. To be honest it sounds truly ridiculous. It is just as likely as me going to Valhalla if I die in battle

However, let's assume it is real. Surely living a good life and being moral for the sake of avoiding damnation and entering paradise is not truly good, nor moral. I would argue that living a good life and being moral because it's the right thing to do - not for any afterlife reward - makes a better person

To clarify;

I do know that hell is real.

I changed the previous post to "conciously aware of" because otherwise some people would get confused, ie. making the false assumption that I know whereas others don't when nothing could be further from the truth. The truth is that everyone knows the God of creation, and therefore the fact that hell is real. The atheists muslims and hindus of our world just choose to hold that truth in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18).

As I said, if you were to be perfectly honest you would admit that deep down, in your heart of hearts you know the God of creation(Romans 1:20), but because you love the world, and the lusts therof you are not willing to. (John 3:20) You don't like the idea of Someone being in charge, telling you what to do and what not to. You want to be the god of your own life.

Surely living a good life and being moral for the sake of avoiding damnation and entering paradise is not truly good, nor moral. I would argue that living a good life and being moral because it's the right thing to do - not for any afterlife reward - makes a better person

Flawed reasoning.

Your second paragraph consists of two arbitrary strawman attacks I'm afraid.. You seem to misunderstand why Jesus came to earth, and why He died on the cross.

Let me explain.

The first false premise is the suggestion that Christians live good and moral lives for the sake of avoding damnation and entering paradise. This is a damnable heresy not found within the pages of Scriptures. First of all no one is good, not even one. (Mark 10:18). We have all gone astray (Isaiah 53:6). There is no one who understands and no one who seeketh God (Romans 3:11), for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God(Romans 3:10).


Romans 3:11
"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."


The wages of sin is death, (Romans 6:23). The eternal lake of fire is the second death (Revelation 20:14)

This means that the mankind is in trouble. We are all in danger of hell fire. We can't fix the problem ourselves, ie. All our rightousness is as filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6)

But our Creator doesn't want any of us to go to hell. This is where Jesus comes in. He says "Father, reserve your wrath. I will take their punishment. I will become the propitiation for their sins." (1 John 2:2).

That's why in His loving grace and mercy God sent His only begotten Son (John 3:16), to take the punishment mankind deserved for their sins. Jesus(God in flesh) came to earth and died a horrible death on the cross so that you can have eternal life in Him(John 6:47). Jesus payed a debt He did not owe, becuase we owed a debt we could not pay. What a wonderful Saviour!

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."


By putting our trust in the finished, redemptive work of Christ on the cross, we are saved. The moment a person realises their guilt of sin(Luke 23:40-43), comes to Jesus, believes in His death, burial and resurrection (Cor 15:1-4), and asks Him to save him/her the person is saved instantly (Romans 10:13). He/She is accepted into the family of God, and becomes indwelt by the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 3:16 ).

Therefore we conclude that Salvation is by grace through faith apart from any works on the sinners' part (Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:5-6, Romans 11:6, Titus 3:5)

Romans 11:6

" And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Eternal life is not a reward. It's a grace( an undeserved, unmerited act of kindness).

Also click this link. It wraps up Salvation very nicely.

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/how_to_be_saved.html

Please, when you put the verses into a google search follow each verse by "KJV".

The King James Bible is the only remaining readily available Bible in english today. The only one of the incourruptible seed. (1 Peter 1:23)

All the modern versions have been corrupted by satan.

Peace

[Stiff Little Fingers]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
Please, when you put the verses into a google search follow each verse by "KJV".

The King James Bible is the only remaining readily available Bible in english today. The only one of the incourruptible seed. (1 Peter 1:23)

All the modern versions have been corrupted by satan.

As opposed to the KJV, which was re-written by the monarch (or more accurately, under the orders of the monarch) to better fit what he wanted it to say, as opposed to what it actually said?

Such an uncorrupted version

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by Alofleicester)
As opposed to the KJV, which was re-written by the monarch (or more accurately, under the orders of the monarch) to better fit what he wanted it to say, as opposed to what it actually said?

Such an uncorrupted version

The world calls it a version. I wouldn't however.

It's a faithful translation from the original languages. Not a version. All you need to do to know this, is be aware of the fact it was translated from the received text, and stands for the truth every single time compared against the modern false "Bibles" in every department. This stands next to the fact that the preface to the King James Bible tells you all about the motives and the purpose the translators had in front of their eyes. It was translated by God fearing educated men. The only Bible committee to be persecuted for their faith. But of course you didn't take your time to check this. Have you?

Like I said, it's the incorruptible inspired seed God promised to preserve before the world began.

P.S

To this I would add a humble fact, that having had reading experience of both the received, and the corrupt texts, my soul is convinced that King James Bible is the true inspired Word of God. Anyone who has read the King James Bible will agree with me, that you know, you just know it's the Word of God. Not a Word of God, not a version of the Word of God, but the Word of God. You can't express it in words.

After being fed with a modern falsified version for most of my life, the Spirit of God convicted me, and I changed to the (real)Bible, the KJB, and I never looked back. You fall in love with what it almost seems an insult to call a book.

It's the preserved, inspired Word of God.

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/...troduction.php

[Stiff Little Fingers]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
The world calls it a version. I wouldn't however.

It's a faithful translation from the original languages. Not a version. All you need to do to know this, is be aware of the fact it was translated from the received text, and stands for the truth every single time compared against the modern false "Bibles" in every department. This stands next to the fact that the preface to the King James Bible tells you all about the motives and the purpose the translators had in front of their eyes. It was translated by God fearing educated men. The only Bible committee to be persecuted for their faith. But of course you didn't take your time to check this. Have you?

Like I said, it's the incorruptible inspired seed God promised to preserve before the world began.

I don't really need to check whether the committee were persecuted - that has no relevance to whether or not they edited it - which they did, the KJV was changed to better suit what King James thought it should be.

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by Alofleicester)
I don't really need to check whether the committee were persecuted - that has no relevance to whether or not they edited it - which they did, the KJV was changed to better suit what King James thought it should be.

This

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by Alofleicester)
I don't really need to check whether the committee were persecuted - that has no relevance to whether or not they edited it - which they did, the KJV was changed to better suit what King James thought it should be.

And this;

Unsubstantiated allegation.

[Artymess]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
lots of bible-quoting nonsense

I'm going to be nice, and save us both a lot of hassle. I will not consider any argument that you have made, which has its foundation in biblical scripture. There is no evidence that what is written is true, indeed different Christian denominations regard and interpret it differently

If you can form an argument or rebuttal that doesn't use a c2600 old piece of unfounded literature, I will consider it.

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by Artymess)
I'm going to be nice, and save us both a lot of hassle. I will not consider any argument that you have made, which has its foundation in biblical scripture. There is no evidence that what is written is true, indeed different Christian denominations regard and interpret it differently

If you can form an argument or rebuttal that doesn't use a c2600 old piece of unfounded literature, I will consider it.

Luke 16:19-31;

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

This Scripture puts it perfectly.

As you have read yourself, if the Word of God can't persuade you of the truth, nobody ever can or will, so it's best to leave the conversation here.

Friend I still beseech you, consider the Word of God for without it all shall perish.

"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."(Luke 13:3-5)


"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"(Mark 8:36)

Life is very short.

Eternity is not.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."(Revelation 21:8)

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"(2 Thessalonians 1:8-9)

[Christ Is Lord]

(Original post by NJA)
You say they are not, please give ONE example where someone "received the Holy Spirit" but later got baptised in the Holy Spirit.

This website explains the difference pretty well.

http://bible.org/seriespage/filling-holy-spirit

[Artymess]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
Luke 16:19-31;


This Scripture puts it perfectly.

As you have read yourself, if the Word of God can't persuade you of the truth, nobody ever can or will, so it's best to leave the conversation here.

Friend I still beseech you, consider the Word of God for without it all shall perish.

"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."(Luke 13:3-5)


"For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"(Mark 8:36)

Life is very short.

Eternity is not.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."(Revelation 21:8)

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"(2 Thessalonians 1:8-9)

Once again, you have founded your entire argument in a book that cannot be proven, verified or legitimised by any evidence. This is akin to answering '42'when asked about the purpose of life, the universe and everything. It is a fallacy to ground such beliefs in what is, with a lack of evidence, a work of fiction.

So friend, I beseech you - open your mind, question your beliefs, quit blindly quoting scripture as if it is fact. Maybe you'll grow as a person

[generallee]

(Original post by Christ Is Lord)
The world calls it a version. I wouldn't however.

It's a faithful translation from the original languages. Not a version. All you need to do to know this, is be aware of the fact it was translated from the received text, and stands for the truth every single time compared against the modern false "Bibles" in every department. This stands next to the fact that the preface to the King James Bible tells you all about the motives and the purpose the translators had in front of their eyes. It was translated by God fearing educated men. The only Bible committee to be persecuted for their faith. But of course you didn't take your time to check this. Have you?

Like I said, it's the incorruptible inspired seed God promised to preserve before the world began.

P.S

To this I would add a humble fact, that having read both the received, and the corrupt texts, my soul is convinced that King James Bible is the true inspired Word of God. Anyone who has read the King James Bible will agree with me, that you know, you just know it's the Word of God. Not a Word of God, not a version of the Word of God, but the Word of God. You can't express it in words.

After being fed with a modern falsified version for most of my life, the Spirit of God convicted me, and I changed to the (real)Bible, the KJB, and I never looked back. You fall in love with what it almost seems an insult to call a book.

It's the preserved, inspired Word of God.

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/...troduction.php

Can I ask you a simple and rather obvious question?

Isn't it rather careless and confusing of God to communicate such important messages to his creations in this way?

We are talking here about eternal salvation. A pretty big deal everyone must agree.

Why did He inspire this man (who held the coats of friends who stoned the first Christian martyr to death by the way before his startling conversion) to write very confused and oblique explications of the true faith in a language no-one now reads and which is subject to such errors of translation?

Having made no contact with the non Jewish part of mankind since the creation, and not having made contact in the nearly two thousand years since (if you aren't a Muslim or Mormon or whatever?)

This getting saved is all a bit hit and miss isn't it? Does it ever occur to you that even according to your own belief system He doesn't seem to care much whether we get saved or not?