[TigerSwift]

(Original post by Maturestudent1)
Would it be possible for the GPhC to add entry requirements into the pharmacy school criteria? From what I understand, they tell the schools what it is they must teach so couldn't they also say before they undertake the pharmacy course they need to show a good grasp of of particular subjects and get specific grades to prove it? By raising the entry criteria you also restrict either the number that enter or at least the academic quality of those that enter the profession.

The GPhC has the power to acredit courses and as such as developed an indicative syllabus. This syllabus covers the 'areas' that need to be taught on the degree. I've highlighted the word 'areas' because they don't give specifics of what should be taught.

For example they state the syllabus should contain "therapeutics", which should cover routes of administration, infection control, etc. However, it doesn't give specifics within those areas. i.e. It doesnt state which routes of administration need to be taught.

The GPhC doesn't have the power to control entry onto the course in any way shape or form. As the regulator of pharmacists and training it has an outcome based framework of what graduates and newly qualifieds should know. It doesn't really care how the universities or training sites meet these outcomes, as long as they do.

The best pharmacists out there don't always get the best A-level grades. You sometimes find those who get the very highest grades have no communication skills (which is vital for a healthcare professional) and actually applied to study medicine or dentistry (meaning they're studying pharmacy because they think its the next best thing).

Therefore, I would be against lowering pharmacy course entry requirements. I also think medicine should consider reducing its entry grades to encourage those with the right attitudes to become a doctor. There are better ways to reduce applicant numbers than raising entry requirements.

Sorry - went on a bit of a rant there! In short the answer to the GPhC doing stuff is: "They can't"

[RnTf]

Do unis reject those applicants who apply medicine/dentistry but take pharm as their back-up choice??

[shuaib786]

(Original post by RnTf)
Do unis reject those applicants who apply medicine/dentistry but take pharm as their back-up choice??

Well some unis will accept it as your 5th choice for example bradford or keele university.

But you could always apply on extra or clearing because there are always places available at places like Aston, Bradford, Sunderland, Kingston etc.

[-Emmz-]

The latest email from the PDA says ...
"We are approaching a situation where soon there will be a net increase of 2,000 pharmacists on the pharmacy register every year and there are several new schools of pharmacy still to be opened."

Scary thought but I think if you really want to be a pharmacist then you shouldn't let it put you off but you need to be willing to put in the extra work on top of the academic side of things with placements, volunteering etc so you will really shine when it comes getting a job.

I do really feel for pre-regs this year, just 4 years ago it was relatively easy to get a band 6 (newly qualified) job in hospital but now even smaller hospitals are getting over 50 applicants for just 1 job ...

[shuaib786]

(Original post by -Emmz-)
The latest email from the PDA says ...
"We are approaching a situation where soon there will be a net increase of 2,000 pharmacists on the pharmacy register every year and there are several new schools of pharmacy still to be opened."

Scary thought but I think if you really want to be a pharmacist then you shouldn't let it put you off but you need to be willing to put in the extra work on top of the academic side of things with placements, volunteering etc so you will really shine when it comes getting a job.

I do really feel for pre-regs this year, just 4 years ago it was relatively easy to get a band 6 (newly qualified) job in hospital but now even smaller hospitals are getting over 50 applicants for just 1 job ...

More schools need to open???!!! I bet the employers will soon start to look at which university that you graduated from.

But you could also argue that population will always need drugs and medication because diseases are becoming more common now like diabetes, obesity related diseases and cancer. Pharmacists are really important for our health. I mean how time are you going to be ill during the year??? I mean my Grandad visits the pharmacy at least 15-20 times a year.

I also think locums will still be around as pharmacists will take holidays and for women they will probably go for maternity leave. So someone will need to replace them whilst they've gone.

ps these are just my theories and predictions feel free to correct me.

[-Emmz-]

(Original post by shuaib786)
More schools need to open???!!!

Er, what part of my post said that? It says there are new schools still to open not that they think new schools need to open!

[shuaib786]

(Original post by -Emmz-)
Er, what part of my post said that? It says there are new schools still to open not that they think new schools need to open!

Sorry i miss phrased that, but more schools are going to open???!!!

[TigerSwift]

(Original post by shuaib786)
Sorry i miss phrased that, but more schools are going to open???!!!

Yes:
- Durham
- Birmingham
- Lincon

[TigerSwift]

(Original post by oliviagunapalan)
Alright! Thank you for the info.

Just to follow up from the above. The BPSA and RPS have worked together, with others, and propose to set up a Tier 5 VISA for current students who want to train in community pharmacy: http://bit.ly/J8jv3z

This does not extend to employment after training and you will be subjected to the normal VISA systems other non-EEA skilled workers have to follow.

[oliviagunapalan]

(Original post by TigerSwift)
Just to follow up from the above. The BPSA and RPS have worked together, with others, and propose to set up a Tier 5 VISA for current students who want to train in community pharmacy: http://bit.ly/J8jv3z

This does not extend to employment after training and you will be subjected to the normal VISA systems other non-EEA skilled workers have to follow.

Thanks for this! One quick question though, does this apply to students like me who are only starting in September 2012? Cause from reading the article, it seems like only current students get to do this?

[Tototoro]

(Original post by TigerSwift)
Just to follow up from the above. The BPSA and RPS have worked together, with others, and propose to set up a Tier 5 VISA for current students who want to train in community pharmacy: http://bit.ly/J8jv3z

This does not extend to employment after training and you will be subjected to the normal VISA systems other non-EEA skilled workers have to follow.

What I got from reading this is that as international students, after we do our pre-reg we are not allowed to be qualified and stay and work in the UK. They will only allow us to stay in the country until after pre-reg and are pretty much forcing us to go back to our native countries right after? Also, is this only going to apply for community pharmacies? Is it correct for me to say that if you do a hospital pre-reg then there is a chance you will be allowed to qualify and work in the UK afterwards?

[MoAli45]

(Original post by Tototoro)
What I got from reading this is that as international students, after we do our pre-reg we are not allowed to be qualified and stay and work in the UK. They will only allow us to stay in the country until after pre-reg and are pretty much forcing us to go back to our native countries right after? Also, is this only going to apply for community pharmacies? Is it correct for me to say that if you do a hospital pre-reg then there is a chance you will be allowed to qualify and work in the UK afterwards?

Ok im not trying to sound rude or racist or anything but why would you want to work in the uk???

I mean people born in the uk are struggling to find jobs after finishing their degrees. The income tax is high in the uk, since theres too many foreigners in this country people have settle for lower wages.

I've heard in countries like Canada, Austrailia, USA and etc, the pharmacists are getting paid 6 figure salaries. Compared over here in the uk where it's only between £30000 - £40000 and thats before tax is cut off from your salaries.

[YogurtLover]

(Original post by MoAli45)
Ok im not trying to sound rude or racist or anything but why would you want to work in the uk???

I mean people born in the uk are struggling to find jobs after finishing their degrees. The income tax is high in the uk, since theres too many foreigners in this country people have settle for lower wages.

I've heard in countries like Canada, Austrailia, USA and etc, the pharmacists are getting paid 6 figure salaries. Compared over here in the uk where it's only between £30000 - £40000 and thats before tax is cut off from your salaries.

That does actually sound quite rude. And no i'm not an international student but I really dislike such attitudes. If you think that everyone struggles to get a job after graduation, then why did you go to university? Why not get a job after college? Are you doing pharmacy just for the so-called job security?

In Canada, its actually hard for those students with pharmacy degrees to even get a pre-reg position. That is because pharmacy taught there is much more clinical and hands on than it is here. So graduates from Canada are more likely to get those posts.

[MoAli45]

(Original post by YogurtLover)
That does actually sound quite rude. And no i'm not an international student but I really dislike such attitudes. If you think that everyone struggles to get a job after graduation, then why did you go to university? Why not get a job after college? Are you doing pharmacy just for the so-called job security?

In Canada, its actually hard for those students with pharmacy degrees to even get a pre-reg position. That is because pharmacy taught there is much more clinical and hands on than it is here. So graduates from Canada are more likely to get those posts.

Sorry it did sound rude in the end, but it just needs to be said. UK probably has the strongest currency in the world, so these foreigners all they care about is when they convert it to their own currency. We British born have to pay high taxes to fund these lazy guys who cba working or getting an education or foreigners who sneak into this country by getting into fake marriages just to get a visa into this country.

Before locums used to get paid £25 an hour, since these foreigners from the EU have come here the locum rate has gone down to £18 an hour. Because these foreigners are willing to work for less wages, so those guys are more likely to get the job because the employer would prefer them, as it saves money for the business.

FYI, im not a pharmacist because of the job security, but lets be honest whats the point of working so hard through high school, college, university and not getting a job or getting paid peanuts????? You might as well move to another country or just shoot yourself!!!

[YogurtLover]

(Original post by MoAli45)
FYI, im not a pharmacist because of the job security, but lets be honest whats the point of working so hard through high school, college, university and not getting a job or getting paid peanuts????? You might as well move to another country or just shoot yourself!!!

If you really feel this way then why are you even bothered to complete your degree? You may as well just give up now and save yourself all the hassle and money.

[TigerSwift]

(Original post by oliviagunapalan)
Thanks for this! One quick question though, does this apply to students like me who are only starting in September 2012? Cause from reading the article, it seems like only current students get to do this?

(Original post by Tototoro)
What I got from reading this is that as international students, after we do our pre-reg we are not allowed to be qualified and stay and work in the UK. They will only allow us to stay in the country until after pre-reg and are pretty much forcing us to go back to our native countries right after? Also, is this only going to apply for community pharmacies? Is it correct for me to say that if you do a hospital pre-reg then there is a chance you will be allowed to qualify and work in the UK afterwards?

Okay, there are a number of issues at hand here and I will try and address these as best I can.

When immigration policy changed they removed pharmacy from the Shortage Occupation List and therefore pharmacists and prereg jobs became subject to Tier 2 (General) VISA policy. In order to qualify for a Tier 2 VISA the employer had to pay the employee a minimum of £20,700 per year.

NHS employers already pay above this and therefore any international student undertaking the prereg in hospital can get a Tier 2 VISA and work without problems. However, many community employers do not pay that much (median £18,400) and therefore students had their training offers withdrawn.

The Tier 5 (GAE) VISA proposed in the link I provided is for those students who wish to undertake their preregistration training within the community sector but don't get paid £20,700 a year. The sponsor for this will not be the employer but will be the Royal Pharmaceutical Society.

The one down side of the Tier 5 system is that at the end of the training year the graduates need to return to their home country and apply for a Tier 2 VISA for further employment from there.

However, this is much better than deporting students who haven't completed the training year and therefore risk having a worthless qualification in their home country. The RPS is proposing to run this Tier 5 VISA for current students who were enrolled onto the MPharm with the expectation they would get a training place at the end of the degree. They will not be running this VISA for students who start the MPharm in September 2012 and onwards as they will be made aware they are not guaranteed a training place at the end of the degree.

If you do your prereg on a Tier 2 VISA you are granted a short period to stay within the UK and get another job here. However, if you are employed by a different employer (different hospital or pharmacy branch) you will need to get another Tier 2 VISA and from this point will be subject to the resident labour market test. The RLMT ensures there was not an EEA citizen able to take that job before a non-EEA citizen is taken on.

[oliviagunapalan]

(Original post by TigerSwift)
Okay, there are a number of issues at hand here and I will try and address these as best I can.

When immigration policy changed they removed pharmacy from the Shortage Occupation List and therefore pharmacists and prereg jobs became subject to Tier 2 (General) VISA policy. In order to qualify for a Tier 2 VISA the employer had to pay the employee a minimum of £20,700 per year.

NHS employers already pay above this and therefore any international student undertaking the prereg in hospital can get a Tier 2 VISA and work without problems. However, many community employers do not pay that much (median £18,400) and therefore students had their training offers withdrawn.

The Tier 5 (GAE) VISA proposed in the link I provided is for those students who wish to undertake their preregistration training within the community sector but don't get paid £20,700 a year. The sponsor for this will not be the employer but will be the Royal Pharmaceutical Society.

The one down side of the Tier 5 system is that at the end of the training year the graduates need to return to their home country and apply for a Tier 2 VISA for further employment from there.

However, this is much better than deporting students who haven't completed the training year and therefore risk having a worthless qualification in their home country. The RPS is proposing to run this Tier 5 VISA for current students who were enrolled onto the MPharm with the expectation they would get a training place at the end of the degree. They will not be running this VISA for students who start the MPharm in September 2012 and onwards as they will be made aware they are not guaranteed a training place at the end of the degree.

If you do your prereg on a Tier 2 VISA you are granted a short period to stay within the UK and get another job here. However, if you are employed by a different employer (different hospital or pharmacy branch) you will need to get another Tier 2 VISA and from this point will be subject to the resident labour market test. The RLMT ensures there was not an EEA citizen able to take that job before a non-EEA citizen is taken on.

So if I was looking into doing hospital pharmacy then I would still be able to do my pre-reg in the UK without applying for a tier 5 visa? But if I'd like to work in the UK then I'd have to be employed by the same company/hospital?

[TigerSwift]

(Original post by oliviagunapalan)
So if I was looking into doing hospital pharmacy then I would still be able to do my pre-reg in the UK without applying for a tier 5 visa? But if I'd like to work in the UK then I'd have to be employed by the same company/hospital?

If your prereg employer pays equal to or more than the set annual wage (currently £20,700) you can get a Tier 2 VISA. If not, you will need to have the Tier 5 VISA if you are a current student. If you are starting in 2012 or later you will probably not have the option of a Tier 5 VISA and you will therefore need to do your prereg with an employer that pays enough.

The first time you move from a Tier 4 (Student) VISA to a Tier 2 (general) VISA you are exempt from the Resident Labour Market Test, as long as you graduated with a MPharm from a UK university, whilst studying in the UK.

Tier 2 VISAs are not transferrable between employers. If you continue as a junior pharmacist in the same hospital or pharmacy branch you did your prereg in you can use the same Tier 2 VISA. If you move to another employer you must get another Tier 2 VISA. This second VISA will mean you are subject to the Resident Labour Market Test, which effectively means the employer has to employ an EEA citizen above a non-EEA citizen. As long as the EEA citizen meets the person specification in the job advert they have to be employed instead of the best non-EEA candidate.

The main things I would ask you to take away are:
1. If you're starting in September 2012 or after you are NOT gauranteed a preregistration placement.
2. The VISA policy could well change within the next few years so the current systems may not apply to you when you're looking to work here.
3. Find out whether a UK MPharm without the preregistration year is worth anything in your home country. Your home country may have its own version of the prereg.

[shuaib786]

(Original post by TigerSwift)
Yes:
- Durham
- Birmingham
- Lincon

Birmingham??? Really??? Whats the point??? Theres already a pharmacy school at Aston!!!

[Medic1992]

Does this mean that people who have graduated from the worst pharmacy universities in the UK are less likely to get a job than the students who went to the top ones??

I have many friends that just think that getting a pharmacy degree will get you a job!