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Conflict between smaller trophies and league finishes?

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Applying to Uni? Let Universities come to you. Click here to get your perfect place 20-10-2014
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    Forget this thread. I didn't get my point across the way I wanted to. And so, people have misunderstood me. So let this thread die.
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    Finishing high in the league helps you to win trophies in the future.

    It is mostly the top clubs that win the FA Cup and the Carling Cup.
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    (Original post by Darth Vader 7)
    Like I said before, my point was more aimed at the CC and FA cup. I'd rather have those 'magical moments' at the expense of a CC or FA cup. I would love to have both but at this moment in time, Arsenal are incapable of doing that.
    I'd like to hear your thoughts on my OP, particularly as you're an arsenal fan.
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    (Original post by Cable)
    Basically, there are traditional fans (like myself) that believe trophies are more (and should be) important than league finishes in general. Why? Because no one in 40 years time will remember how Arsenal finished in the top 4 for the past decade.
    There will be a much larger chance RVP will leave without CL football than with.
    If Arsenal won both cups, there would still be a larger chance RVP would leave because he would not have CL football.

    RVP is one of the worlds best strikers this season and no doubt will be for a few seasons more. You cannot replace that. Without that, Arsenal lose a massive part of their team, and he may not be the only one. Without CL football, that team then cannot , as easily anyway, attract the better players without some luck with good transfers.

    Without these players, Arsenal would not be able to effectively compete for anything the season after this. If RVP left, i guarantee you that without fantastic transfer deals, Arsenal will not score as many goals, and that will come down to luck whether they finish where they do this season.. next season.

    An example that isnt too far-fetched in line with your comparison.
    Hypothetically Arsenal won the FA cup this season, but get no CL football coming 6th. RVP leaves, the team then lose a massive part of there team and come 7th next season and dont win anything due to a weakened team. They either stay in this cycle, or with the odds against them get out of it.
    Or.
    Arsenal dont win the FA cup, but stay in CL football where they get to QFs. The CL has allowed them to bid, and end up getting, Eden Hazard because CL football attracts him and the CL money has allowed them to buy him. Next season, Arsenal.. because of this.. reach the CL football again, and also have great challenges for the cups. This cycle repeats until something big changes.

    I think its very clear what a genuine fan would want. Especially for a club who has the ability and expectations to regularly compete for things.

    However, people will remember Chelsea winning the FA cup in 2009, 2010 and 2012. People will look at the record books and look at Chelsea and Man Utd's Premier league titles. They'll look at their FA cups. They won't look at when liverpool finished 7th. You get my point now?
    No, because your point is naive.

    You dont look at the bigger picture, at all.. It is not simply 'Do you want a cup or do you want to go into CL football, to which nothing will change the year after'
    The fact of the matter is that CL football will much more likely add to the future success of a club which will add to the future trophy success of a club.

    This all depends on the teams ofcourse, some teams would love to win any cups as they have never done or not done for a very long time, but Chelsea are not one of these teams, nor is Arsenal, nor are Manchester United.

    But thanks to the FA and UEFA ruining cup competitions (I'll discuss this in another thread), trophies like the FA cup have lost prestige and importance. Nowadays, football is about money.
    :facepalm2:
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    Just read the redandwhitekop forums.. winning the carling cup makes up for a **** season
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    (Original post by Tommyjw)
    .
    Woah, you've taken my post the wrong way. I already know of all the things you're talking about. In fact, some of the things you've stated have been said in my OP (to an extent).

    It's just that many arsenal fans have been complaining at how boring it has been to just finish in the top 4 without winning trophies for the past 7 years. And some liverpool fans have been claiming that winning the FA cup and carling cup will make up for their bad league position.

    Hence why I created this thread to explore their feelings further.
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    I think it simply comes down to personal preference between each individual fan. I've been supporting Arsenal closely since around 1997, so have experienced trophies as well as top 4 finishes.

    The optimal point for any big club & fans would be to win the best trophies (CL,PL,FA) & be able to defend them.
    If trophies aren't won, then fans would like to see quality players at their club which would help them push for those trophies, which is more likely to happen if you can provide european football.

    Being an Arsenal fan, I have witnessed champions league football every year, & to take that away would be quite disheartening. Being able to finish in the top 4, would almost certainly mean that you're able to compete for domestic trophies anyway, however this isn't the same when flipped, e.g. liverpool/stoke of last year/portsmouth etc.

    So if I were to pick between CC/FA cup or a top 4 finish, I'd take the top 4 finish every year & trophies will eventually come.
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    (Original post by Tommyjw)
    You dont look at the bigger picture, at all.. It is not simply 'Do you want a cup or do you want to go into CL football, to which nothing will change the year after'
    The fact of the matter is that CL football will much more likely add to the future success of a club which will add to the future trophy success of a club.

    but Chelsea are not one of these teams, nor is Arsenal, nor are Manchester United.
    I know this already. But my point is that a lot of Arsenal fans are getting tired off top 4 and no trophies for the past 7 years. If this continues for another 5 years, aren't they right to be angry at their club? For how long must the cycle continue? How long must the current fans bear trophyless seasons?
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    (Original post by Lyrically)
    I think it simply comes down to personal preference between each individual fan. I've been supporting Arsenal closely since around 1997, so have experienced trophies as well as top 4 finishes.

    The optimal point for any big club & fans would be to win the best trophies (CL,PL,FA) & be able to defend them.
    If trophies aren't won, then fans would like to see quality players at their club which would help them push for those trophies, which is more likely to happen if you can provide european football.

    Being an Arsenal fan, I have witnessed champions league football every year, & to take that away would be quite disheartening. Being able to finish in the top 4, would almost certainly mean that you're able to compete for domestic trophies anyway, however this isn't the same when flipped, e.g. liverpool/stoke of last year/portsmouth etc.

    So if I were to pick between CC/FA cup or a top 4 finish, I'd take the top 4 finish every year & trophies will eventually come.
    But what if you didn't win a trophy in the next 10 years?

    And would you take dropping out of the CL for just one year if it meant winning the FA cup or would you rather no trophies and staying in the CL for that year?
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    (Original post by Cable)
    But what if you didn't win a trophy in the next 10 years?

    And would you take dropping out of the CL for just one year if it meant winning the FA cup or would you rather no trophies and staying in the CL for that year?
    Well that's the beauty of football isn't it? It's never hypothetical. As long as we're able to compete for all 3 trophies, I'm satisfied.
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    (Original post by Cable)
    I'd like to hear your thoughts on my OP, particularly as you're an arsenal fan.
    Tommyjw hit the nail on the head.

    Firstly, CL football is paramount to any team that wants long term success in modern football.

    When considering the comparison between qualifying for the CL and winning both the FA cup and Carling cup, no one really considers the negative implications of not qualifying for the CL.

    As Tommy has pointed out, the lack of prestige and revenue damages the club. The ability to not pull in big players is detrimental to future endeavors but you also lose any big players you once had because of not being in Europe's top competition. So you risk going in this downward spiral that could take years to fix. I wouldn't want to risk that for two domestic cups which aren't taken seriously by the big clubs anymore. We all know the prestige and recognition lies with the Premier league and Champions league.

    You also have to understand that being in the CL means that you must be one of the top teams in your league. As a result, you are considerably closer to winning the Premier league than a team that is only successful on domestic cup runs. Even now, people wouldn't consider Chelsea better title contenders than the likes of Tottenham, Arsenal and Newcastle even though they are in the CL final.

    I am content with CL football over the FA cup and Carling cup as ultimately, you're always going to be closer to the big prizes which is what everyone wants.
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    (Original post by Darth Vader 7)
    Tommyjw hit the nail on the head.

    Firstly, CL football is paramount to any team that wants long term success in modern football.

    When considering the comparison between qualifying for the CL and winning both the FA cup and Carling cup, no one really considers the negative implications of not qualifying for the CL.

    As Tommy has pointed out, the lack of prestige and revenue damages the club. The ability to not pull in big players is detrimental to future endeavors but you also lose any big players you once had because of not being in Europe's top competition. So you risk going in this downward spiral that could take years to fix. I wouldn't want to risk that for two domestic cups which aren't taken seriously by the big clubs anymore. We all know the prestige and recognition lies with the Premier league and Champions league.

    You also have to understand that being in the CL means that you must be one of the top teams in your league. As a result, you are considerably closer to winning the Premier league than a team that is only successful on domestic cup runs. Even now, people wouldn't consider Chelsea better title contenders than the likes of Tottenham, Arsenal and Newcastle even though they are in the CL final.

    I am content with CL football over the FA cup and Carling cup as ultimately, you're always going to be closer to the big prizes which is what everyone wants.
    Thanks for your reply but I can't help being a bit frustrated at some of the replies so far. I already acknowledged in the OP that CL football is very important since it helps financially and in terms of attracting better players.

    But it seems Tommyjw ignored it.

    I just wanted to see how some fans felt on the issue of being trophyless but being in the top 4 over a long period of time. You've made your feelings clear. You would be happier with regular top 4 and no trophies than being in liverpool's position.

    And would you take dropping out of the CL for just one year if it meant winning the FA cup or would you rather no trophies and staying in the CL for that year?
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    (Original post by Darth Vader 7)
    Firstly, CL football is paramount to any team that wants long term success in modern football.
    That statement is absolute *******s. There are more than four successful teams inside English football every season. Reading are probably more likely for 'long term success' for being promoted as champions than a team who scrapes fourth.
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    (Original post by Marshyy)
    That statement is absolute *******s. There are more than four successful teams inside English football every season. Reading are probably more likely for 'long term success' for being promoted as champions than a team who scrapes fourth.
    Wait, you're saying that a team promoted to the Premier league has a higher chance of long term success than a team in the top 4?

    Wow.
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    I'd rather finish 17th than win a domestic cup
    I'd rather win a domestic cup than care about where I finishing between 5th-17th
    I'd rather finish top4 than win a domestic cup
    I'd rather win the champions league than finish top4
    I'd rather win the league than the champions league (Liverpool fan view, although I'm sure Chelsea/Arsenal would rather win the CL)

    The bold one is because top4 allows more money, which in turn provides a better platform and chance to win the league/CL/domestic cup.
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    (Original post by Darth Vader 7)
    Wait, you're saying that a team promoted to the Premier league has a higher chance of long term success than a team in the top 4?

    Wow.
    Success is relative. There are more than 4 'successful' clubs in England.

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