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United States of Europe, is it inevitable?

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    Is it inevitable that Europe will one day form the USofE. Should Britain join it? and what would it mean for ordinary people?

    Also how do you think it should work - complete fiscal and political union? but will the language barrier be unbearable?

    Why am I being negged when I don't believe in a USE - we should be more like Canada and Norway...
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    (Original post by patrickinator)
    Is it inevitable that Europe will one day form the USofE. Should Britain join it? and what would it mean for ordinary people?

    Also how do you think it should work - complete fiscal and political union? but will the language barrier be unbearable?
    No. Lots of countries have more than 1 language, the Swiss manage 4 (German, French, Italian and Romansh) with a population of less than 8 million so I don't think that would be a problem.

    Obviously this is dependent upon sufficient legal translators for central laws, organisation of the Forces of such a state to have battle groups all speaking the same language etc. Currently the EU institutions have 3 working languages (French, German and English) and presumably this would remain the case.
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    Just the very thought sends a shiver down my spine.
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    (Original post by roh)
    No. Lots of countries have more than 1 language, the Swiss manage 4 (German, French, Italian and Romansh) with a population of less than 8 million so I don't think that would be a problem.

    Obviously this is dependent upon sufficient legal translators for central laws, organisation of the Forces of such a state to have battle groups all speaking the same language etc. Currently the EU institutions have 3 working languages (French, German and English) and presumably this would remain the case.
    A better example than Switzerland would be India. There are 22 officially recognized languages, with each state speaking one or two each, but the central government operates with only two languages -- English and Hindi. State governments operate in their own languages, and it usually doesn't lead to linguistic issues -- the assumption, however, is that sufficiently high-level government officials are bilingual and can operate in one or both of the national languages.
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    (Original post by patrickinator)
    Is it inevitable that Europe will one day form the USofE. Should Britain join it? and what would it mean for ordinary people?
    It is meaningless for anybody. All that you are talking about is the EU having a name change. That would make absolutely no difference to anyone.

    Also how do you think it should work - complete fiscal and political union?
    There's no such thing. Save perhaps some micro-states, there is no state on earth that does not have local, regional, provincial or national governments within it.
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    (Original post by meenu89)
    Just the very thought sends a shiver down my spine.
    Boris, why do you have to comment on all of my threads. I unfortunately do agree with what you have said....
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    (Original post by patrickinator)
    Boris, why do you have to comment on all of my threads. I unfortunately do agree with what you have said....
    I know I said I am going to work my socks off for Londoners but I can't resist TSR...
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    (Original post by meenu89)
    I know I said I am going to work my socks off for Londoners but I can't resist TSR...
    good for you, Ken Livingstone is a complete ****
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    (Original post by L i b)
    It is meaningless for anybody. All that you are talking about is the EU having a name change. That would make absolutely no difference to anyone.



    There's no such thing. Save perhaps some micro-states, there is no state on earth that does not have local, regional, provincial or national governments within it.
    This isnt a name change. the USE would be based on the American system you numpty - so all countries would vote for a single government probably based in brussels who would decide many key decisions like Obama....douchebag
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    (Original post by patrickinator)
    This isnt a name change. the USE would be based on the American system you numpty
    Why on earth should we make such an utterly ludicrous assumption? The EU's political system is enormously different from the United States, as it its geography.

    so all countries would vote for a single government probably based in brussels who would decide many key decisions like Obama
    The United States is a heavily decentralised country and it is extremely arguable whether Obama does make a great deal of key domestic decisions, particularly without congress. The EU, of course, already has a single executive government in the shape of the European Commission. This, reflecting a completely and utterly different political tradition, is accountable to the European Parliament, the Council of Ministers and (albeit informally) to the European Council.

    One could ask 'should the EU have a presidential system?' quite credibly. Attempting to infer political structures from a change of name, however, is just stupid.
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    I've yet to see any evidence this will happen or is even a propect in the short to medium term-people are far too attached to national governents...
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    I think a federal Europe, at least within the Eurozone, is a strong possibility eventually. Either that or a break-up back into a trading block. A federal europe would definitely be a lot more effective then this halfway house we have at the moment. A proper integrated federal Europe would be more accountable and democratic, a lot more able to get decisions made, a lot stronger economically and a super-power able to counterbalance China, Russia and the US. Sadly I don't think it will happen in my lifetime, people are just too damn nationalistic.
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    Its inevitable, its just whether or not we'll be a part of it.

    Hopefully we won't.
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    A federal Europe is a long way off and may not happen.

    There is a dual Executive at the moment, The European Council and the Commission
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    A federal Europe is a strong possibility, if only because those in the EU in favor of it have demonstrated that they are not prepared to let little things like financial collapse, mass unemployment, riots, the impoverishment of thousands, their own laws (the bailouts were a direct breach of the treaties on which the EU is based) or the will of the people as expressed in referendum results stand in their way.

    They are prepared to see a United Europe at any cost, be it the loss of prosperity, cultural identity or even democracy.
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    I like the idea of a United Europe. However, the EU is not the right institution to make that happen and it has already made many fundamental mistakes, with its democratic accountability questionable at best. It took on too much too fast.



    If a heavily decentralised and democratically accountable body could pull Europe together then I would be fully in favour. It could start with the strongest European economies and then slowly expand and incorporate the weaker areas (and I mean fully incorporate them before bringing in a load more places that are going to cause problems)
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    (Original post by patrickinator)
    Is it inevitable that Europe will one day form the USofE. Should Britain join it? and what would it mean for ordinary people?

    Also how do you think it should work - complete fiscal and political union? but will the language barrier be unbearable?

    Why am I being negged when I don't believe in a USE - we should be more like Canada and Norway...
    I expect it to be called the Federal Republic Of Europe but yes, i do believe that full political union is inevitable and likely within the next 20 years (2025 to 2035 to be more precise), you only need look at France and Germany to see that they are never going to separate again.

    In regards to whether Britain should join, i would be open to the idea down the road however not at the moment. There are basic democratic flaws at the moment, namely that the European Parliament needs more power as opposed to the European Commision and then on top of that, we need the president and Prime Ministers elected with an appropriate political structure. Once we have dealt with that we then have to deal with the issue of the single currency, we need fiscal union (Eurobonds ect..) along with preventative measures to prevent countries running large deficits and for every nation to meet the Maastrchrit Treaty conditions of government debt being less than 60% GDP. Only once we see these steps taken could a British government even consider putting a referendum to the people.

    For ordinary people it simply means that you have a common currency, you can move through the FRE as you like and that you will likely have to sacrifice some degree of cultural identity (a non-issue in my opinion).

    I would prefer law to be in the European Parliament on many things but for a large degree of fiscal autonomy in which each state would largely be responsible for their own taxation, transport and energy policies. Language would be a relatively minor issue as Europeans have seemed to manage fine so far and a common education policy would mean that people would be taught 4 languages (English, French, German, Spanish).

    In conclusion, the FRE is coming but in its current state the UK should not even contemplate joining. For the record however i believe that a FRE would have significant potential.
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    It will be interesting to see how this develops over time. The Euro crisis and the recession appears to have undermined one of the main arguments the EU used for "staying in" and extension - that the EU was a passport to economic strength and rising living standards. The european elite class who strongly favoured ever increasing integration are severely on the backfoot because people all over Europe blame them and loath them. So I would say the prospects aren't great for a "USE".

    On the other hand, in the long run, many trends are running in the direction of the reducing relevance of the traditional nation-state and the ever-increasing need for multi-national organisation. In many ways, there are already just three or four major world groupings - the US/NAFTA - the EU - BRIC. In other ways, the situation is still fluid and evolving.

    On the negative side, Europe has always had and continues to have the significant obstacle to full union that there is a long history of separate strong nationhood in France and Britain particularly. This is much less clear for Germany and Italy, both "invented" 19th Century nations.

    I think the nation-state will one day disappear altogether but there will be a lot of turmoil getting there. The inevitable outcome is a world government, but that will also take some time.

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