Physics degree without further maths???
University course discussion for Physics and Chemistry.
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Physics degree without further maths???I'm trying to think of what university course I should do, and i think what I would like to do most is a physics degree because i can't imagine myself giving up physics. However, my as-levels are maths, physics, chemistry and geology, so I'm really worried about having not done further maths, and the impact this might have on applying for and actually doing a physics course. I know most places say it isnt a requirement, but will I be at a disadvantage? Because I really don't want to feel lost or like one of the stupidest people in my class :/
Also, I'm dropping geology next year, so I was wondering how well people cope picking up further maths to AS in the 2nd year, and is it difficult? Because although I tend to do ok in exams (i got 4 A's in my January exams) sometimes I feel like I'm only just scraping A's because I don't really truly understand a lot of stuff(in maths and physics that is) and tend to get by a lot on educated guesses
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Re: Physics degree without further maths???AS FM would be extremely useful to you for a physics degree. It will smooth the transition.(Original post by Georgie2301)
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Re: Physics degree without further maths???...eh? I have no hard statistics, but I'm pretty sure the majority, or at least a sizeable chunk of people go in without FMaths. Many schools don't even offer it. It will help with the first couple of terms, but they don't assume any prior knowledge, and if you're good enough it's easy enough to catch up on.(Original post by OMGWTFBBQ)
Possible but not to be recommended.
You'll struggle a lot without Further Maths in the first term or two.
So if you have the opportunity to, take it. It'll make your life much easier in first year.
Having said that, it would help. Catching up on the AS would show that you're serious about doing physics and it's a passion, and the AS is quite easy.
Although I'll stress physics is only for those with a real passion for it, and also damn good maths skills. Physics at uni will be more like Mechanics Maths (i.e M1/M2 etc modules) than physics A level, especially the AS. -
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Re: Physics degree without further maths???Also, I don't get why people say Further Maths will help so much. I've done the AS, where I did FP1/S2/M2. In FP1 stuff like proof by induction ain't very useful for physics, but obviously complex numbers and matrices are. But it's so simple in FP1 that you could catch up on it within 2 weeks at uni. M2 just builds on skills from M1, and concepts like energy which won't be new for any budding physicist, so that could be done within a week working at uni pace.
While S2 isn't so directly applicable, there's loads of stats in thermodynamics, quantum etc. I'd actually say that although again there isn't much content, I needed to practice it the most.
FP2/3 are another matter for the A2. But again, I'd say the content involved isn't mind blowing, just that the questions made from them are impossible at times. I find it weird in Maths that the crazy, new stuff like matrices and complex numbers, which don't make any intuitive sense, often have the easiest questions. But stuff like Further Coordinate Geometry in FP3, which is just C2 geometry with new shapes and a bit more differentiation, is impossible at times! -
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Re: Physics degree without further maths???You should be fine without further Maths, it's probably more common amongst Oxbridge students and the like, but the majority of students don't go into a physics degree with it. I did what you're considering and I did AS further Maths in my second year of A level, but I had to study it independently because of how my classes worked out. It was quite useful for some first year Maths, but only relatively basic stuff like matrices and the basics of complex numbers and some of the statistics in S2, but I didn't feel to be at much of an advantage. The thing is that it didn't go much further than the basic questions at uni.(Original post by Georgie2301)
I'm trying to think of what university course I should do, and i think what I would like to do most is a physics degree because i can't imagine myself giving up physics. However, my as-levels are maths, physics, chemistry and geology, so I'm really worried about having not done further maths, and the impact this might have on applying for and actually doing a physics course. I know most places say it isnt a requirement, but will I be at a disadvantage? Because I really don't want to feel lost or like one of the stupidest people in my class :/
Also, I'm dropping geology next year, so I was wondering how well people cope picking up further maths to AS in the 2nd year, and is it difficult? Because although I tend to do ok in exams (i got 4 A's in my January exams) sometimes I feel like I'm only just scraping A's because I don't really truly understand a lot of stuff(in maths and physics that is) and tend to get by a lot on educated guesses
Please help!
I also ended up getting an E at AS further Maths as well, because I couldn't justify revising for it, because none of my offers depended on it.
Further Maths isn't assumed though, and I'd say that you're more likely to struggle with some of the more advanced calculus instead of basic complex numbers and stuff. More knowledge may be assumed at Oxbridge and such, but the shorter terms and stuff mean that they need to move through it quicker anyway, so more private study is needed regardless. -
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Re: Physics degree without further maths???At my uni I would estimate 90% of us had Further Maths, and the other 10% very much struggled in tutorials. It was quite easy to spot them. Harsh but true. My uni sent a 'catch up' booklet out over summer which we were expected to self teach before we started, which contained all of A Level maths and about half of Further Maths. The end of FP2 and all of FP3 was the first term.(Original post by bistonut)
...eh? I have no hard statistics, but I'm pretty sure the majority, or at least a sizeable chunk of people go in without FMaths. Many schools don't even offer it. It will help with the first couple of terms, but they don't assume any prior knowledge, and if you're good enough it's easy enough to catch up on.
Having said that, it would help. Catching up on the AS would show that you're serious about doing physics and it's a passion, and the AS is quite easy.
Although I'll stress physics is only for those with a real passion for it, and also damn good maths skills. Physics at uni will be more like Mechanics Maths (i.e M1/M2 etc modules) than physics A level, especially the AS.
They claim that it isn't a prerequisite - and in a way it isn't - you are just expected to work your arse off in the first term while the rest of the lecture hall are coasting.
That's the reality here, regardless of what the prospectus claims. -
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Re: Physics degree without further maths???Oh, well you're more informed than I am. Still, I was told at Bristol (which seems pretty good for physics, and is my insurance) that the only real new thing in the first term was Taylor series, which really aren't that hard. I sort of guessed at your Oxbridges/Imperial/Durham places, you'd be of good enough standard to catch up on the work, while at the less good places, they wouldn't expect you to have Fmaths and teach it slower. Where do you go can i ask?(Original post by OMGWTFBBQ)
At my uni I would estimate 90% of us had Further Maths, and the other 10% very much struggled in tutorials. It was quite easy to spot them. Harsh but true. My uni sent a 'catch up' booklet out over summer which we were expected to self teach before we started, which contained all of A Level maths and about half of Further Maths. The end of FP2 and all of FP3 was the first term.
They claim that it isn't a prerequisite - and in a way it isn't - you are just expected to work your arse off in the first term while the rest of the lecture hall are coasting.
That's the reality here, regardless of what the prospectus claims.
E: Cancel that, i guess you're at Durham? If your profile is right, I'm also a Mancunian going to Durham (if I get the grades)! What sort of stuff do you go through in the first term?Last edited by bistonut; 07-05-2012 at 13:56. -
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Re: Physics degree without further maths???Does the fact that you're on physics & mathematics change things in the maths area? I just mention it because the people on maths/physics on my course last year took extra maths modules from the maths department, and were in with all the maths undergrads. Obviously the maths department has a lot of students with further maths (this is at York).(Original post by OMGWTFBBQ)
At my uni I would estimate 90% of us had Further Maths, and the other 10% very much struggled in tutorials. It was quite easy to spot them. Harsh but true. My uni sent a 'catch up' booklet out over summer which we were expected to self teach before we started, which contained all of A Level maths and about half of Further Maths. The end of FP2 and all of FP3 was the first term.
They claim that it isn't a prerequisite - and in a way it isn't - you are just expected to work your arse off in the first term while the rest of the lecture hall are coasting.
That's the reality here, regardless of what the prospectus claims.
I was at York last year and there was a fair amount of new material in the maths modules - high order differential equations being one of the bigger ones - some of which is covered in further maths at A2 (so I'm told). I picked up on it fine though, and were more comfortable with them than many of the people who had done further maths.(Original post by bistonut)
Oh, well you're more informed than I am. Still, I was told at Bristol (which seems pretty good for physics, and is my insurance) that the only real new thing in the first term was Taylor series, which really aren't that hard. I sort of guessed at your Oxbridges/Imperial/Durham places, you'd be of good enough standard to catch up on the work, while at the less good places, they wouldn't expect you to have Fmaths and teach it slower. Where do you go can i ask?
E: Cancel that, i guess you're at Durham? If your profile is right, I'm also a Mancunian going to Durham (if I get the grades)! What sort of stuff do you go through in the first term?
It depends on a lot of things to be fair, the methods of doing things by different lecturers will make it easier or harder for each person. -
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Re: Physics degree without further maths???FP2 on edexcel has: Inequalities, proving sigma series by method of differences (can't see this being much use), further complex numbers, 1st and 2nd order differentials, Taylor series and polar co-ords.(Original post by heyimbored)
I was at York last year and there was a fair amount of new material in the maths modules - high order differential equations being one of the bigger ones - some of which is covered in further maths at A2 (so I'm told). I picked up on it fine though, and were more comfortable with them than many of the people who had done further maths.
It depends on a lot of things to be fair, the methods of doing things by different lecturers will make it easier or harder for each person.
FP3 has: Hyperbolic functions, further coordinate geometry (i.e dealing with hyperbola/ellipse etc), differentiation and integration* using hyperbolic functions, vectors (basically introduces the cross product and some of its uses) and Further Matrices.
*This also includes proving integration reduction formula. Do you learn this in physics at uni, I bloody hate them! -
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Re: Physics degree without further maths???I'm pretty sure that last year I did all of them on some level apart from inequalities - which are technically in physics all over the place, but it's not something we really covered specifically.(Original post by bistonut)
FP2 on edexcel has: Inequalities, proving sigma series by method of differences (can't see this being much use), further complex numbers, 1st and 2nd order differentials, Taylor series and polar co-ords.
FP3 has: Hyperbolic functions, further coordinate geometry (i.e dealing with hyperbola/ellipse etc), differentiation and integration* using hyperbolic functions, vectors (basically introduces the cross product and some of its uses) and Further Matrices.
*This also includes proving integration reduction formula. Do you learn this in physics at uni, I bloody hate them!
Proving sigma series by method of differences rings a bell with me, I'm sure I did it, but the fact I can't remember anything about it says a lot, I'm pretty sure it was just in a lecture as one of those "I'll show you this for completeness things" that you get from time to time.
In FP4, hyperbolic functions came up, we had one or two lectures on them I think, including differentiation/integration of them and a bit on their geometry. They appeared from time to time, but there was nothing challenging in them (in my opinion), and came up more within other areas, like Taylor series. First and second order differentials were a big thing for me.
I remember doing integration reduction formula stuff, it wasn't a particularly big thing though (although quite time consuming), it took a while to get around though because of its long winded nature.
Vectors and vector calculus are huge in physics though, and you'll need to be good with them. Any good physics department should make sure their well covered though, because of their importance, especially in electromagnetism which is almost an entire module in it.Last edited by heyimbored; 07-05-2012 at 16:58. -
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Re: Physics degree without further maths???Yes and no. The maths with the maths department is obviously harder, but we still study the same topics as the maths for physicists do.(Original post by heyimbored)
Does the fact that you're on physics & mathematics change things in the maths area? I just mention it because the people on maths/physics on my course last year took extra maths modules from the maths department, and were in with all the maths undergrads. Obviously the maths department has a lot of students with further maths (this is at York).
For example tutorial problems on the physics course require knowledge of partial differentiation, Taylor series, multiple integration, limits, change of basis matrices and vector manipulation etc. These are concepts that are taught in the maths modules, where we obviously take them further if studying with maths than with the physics department. But they are assumed knowledge pretty early on; certainly by Christmas.
I think it's a little unfair really, though in their defence the Physics dept do run weekly 'Brush up your skills' classes on the basis of people complaining about this last year. I hear positive feedback from those that attend.Last edited by OMGWTFBBQ; 07-05-2012 at 17:00. -
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Re: Physics degree without further maths???Ah, fair enough, the lecturers I had last year made sure they covered the basics of those things not covered in A level maths (but in further maths) so that everyone got up to the level that a further maths students would be up to. Those who did do further maths obviously just picked it up a bit quicker than the rest of us. We had 2 problem sessions every week for maths where you could ask questions on those things that went a bit quick for you as well.(Original post by OMGWTFBBQ)
Yes and no. The maths with the maths department is obviously harder, but we still study the same topics as the maths for physicists do.
For example tutorial problems on the physics course require knowledge of partial differentiation, Taylor series, multiple integration, limits, change of basis matrices and vector manipulation etc. These are concepts that are taught in the maths modules, where we obviously take them further if studying with maths than with the physics department. But they are assumed knowledge pretty early on; certainly by Christmas.
I think it's a little unfair really, though in their defence the Physics dept do run weekly 'Brush up your skills' classes on the basis of people complaining about this last year. I hear positive feedback from those that attend.
I think that it can ultimately be concluded that it depends on where you go. Some of the more 'elite' universities that take on the top students will obviously have more who have done further maths and so they may rush through it a bit. It'll even depend on the lecturer though, I did have one who rushed through an aside that was the tool used to solve a partial differentiation problem, nobody got it from what he did and had to work it out ourselves. A similar situation with a previous lecturer though ended up with a whole lecture on this aside so that we knew it properly. -
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Re: Physics degree without further maths???Ah it sounds as though York is more accommodating, which makes advising the OP even tougher. I'm sure it does vary based on whoever is lecturing too. If I recall correctly from my friends at York, you have quite a long teaching year? Possibly more time to go over things in more detail.(Original post by heyimbored)
Ah, fair enough, the lecturers I had last year made sure they covered the basics of those things not covered in A level maths (but in further maths) so that everyone got up to the level that a further maths students would be up to. Those who did do further maths obviously just picked it up a bit quicker than the rest of us. We had 2 problem sessions every week for maths where you could ask questions on those things that went a bit quick for you as well.
Essentially OP, don't be scared off a subject you love. You'll have to work harder during the first term or so than a sizeable proportion of your classmates.
It's not a dealbreaker, but if you have the opportunity to take FM grab it. I'm glad I had it under my belt before starting!
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Re: Physics degree without further maths???10 week terms at York so not the longest, but not the shortest, I don't know how long they are at Durham, but 8 weeks wouldn't surprise me. We had three lecturers over the year for maths and they all varied in terms of assumed knowledge and how they went over the stuff that's in further maths.(Original post by OMGWTFBBQ)
Ah it sounds as though York is more accommodating, which makes advising the OP even tougher. I'm sure it does vary based on whoever is lecturing too. If I recall correctly from my friends at York, you have quite a long teaching year? Possibly more time to go over things in more detail.
Essentially OP, don't be scared off a subject you love. You'll have to work harder during the first term or so than a sizeable proportion of your classmates.
It's not a dealbreaker, but if you have the opportunity to take FM grab it. I'm glad I had it under my belt before starting!
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Re: Physics degree without further maths???Wow, that's changed a lot in the last few years, when I was at Durham I think less than half the class had FM. I don't remember doing any studying at all over the summer but didn't struggle particularly, apart from in the surprise maths test we had in the first lecture.(Original post by OMGWTFBBQ)
At my uni I would estimate 90% of us had Further Maths, and the other 10% very much struggled in tutorials. It was quite easy to spot them. Harsh but true. My uni sent a 'catch up' booklet out over summer which we were expected to self teach before we started, which contained all of A Level maths and about half of Further Maths. The end of FP2 and all of FP3 was the first term.
They claim that it isn't a prerequisite - and in a way it isn't - you are just expected to work your arse off in the first term while the rest of the lecture hall are coasting.
That's the reality here, regardless of what the prospectus claims. -
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Re: Physics degree without further maths???My bf does Physics and just did further maths to AS, but said that the first term of the maths module was bringing everyone up to speed anyway. It's unlikely you're going to launch into really really complicated stuff straight away.
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Re: Physics degree without further maths???So maybe I'm coming in a bit late, but I really want to do physics at uni and have for years. I'm doing AS phys, chem, maths and FM, but I'm intending to drop FM at the end of this year, the pace is too fast and my pure teacher isn't very supportive. But from what you guys are saying, I'm not sure if I should carry on doing 4 A2s (I don't want to give up chem) or whether I'll be OK... Also, when you start talking about FP3... isn't that an extension? It's not in the A2 course for FM I think...
