[fawltyfan]

Hi,

I'm having some difficulty with choosing which UCAS offers to accept as firm and insurance. I am a Scottish applicant and have offers as follows for Advanced Higher:

KCL: A1 A
UCL: AAA
Edinburgh: Unconditional
Bristol: AA

Originally, I was going to put UCL as my firm choice. The problem now is that I have been offered a scholarship from KCL of £18,000 (£3,000 per semester) and, putting the financial incentive aside, I do not know whether the 'status' of having a scholarship will outweigh the difference between UCL and KCL's academic reputation, which is sort of important for me as I can see myself doing postgrad study and/or going to the bar. I assume the social experience would be roughly the same(?) I have to firmly accept KCL to get the scholarship.

Thanks for your advice.

[darkccc]

Well, it really depends on your financial capabilities. If you're unable to finance your studies, then the financial incentive from KCL would surely influence your choice.

Pushing aside the financial considerations, I personally don't think that there is much of a difference between UCL, KCL, LSE, Edinburgh, etc. As another post in the forum states, they're all great universities but just not quite on par with Oxbridge.

Some would argue that prestige (UCL, being "higher" than KCL at the moment supposedly) would greatly influence your career and thus would tell you to choose UCL. Yet, in reality, prestige won't help you much as your career is largely based on your own capabilities. Highly successful lawyers could come from lower ranked universities and average (or below average for that matter) lawyers could come from highly ranked universities, hence, it is what you make of your degree, rather than what the university makes of you.

In general, just choose the university that you like, keeping in mind the various modules available at each university.

[fawltyfan]

(Original post by darkccc)
Well, it really depends on your financial capabilities. If you're unable to finance your studies, then the financial incentive from KCL would surely influence your choice.

Pushing aside the financial considerations, I personally don't think that there is much of a difference between UCL, KCL, LSE, Edinburgh, etc. As another post in the forum states, they're all great universities but just not quite on par with Oxbridge.

Some would argue that prestige (UCL, being "higher" than KCL at the moment supposedly) would greatly influence your career and thus would tell you to choose UCL. Yet, in reality, prestige won't help you much as your career is largely based on your own capabilities. Highly successful lawyers could come from lower ranked universities and average (or below average for that matter) lawyers could come from highly ranked universities, hence, it is what you make of your degree, rather than what the university makes of you.

In general, just choose the university that you like, keeping in mind the various modules available at each university.

I don't think I should have problems financing my studies - I'm confident my parents can support me financially for my degree, so the £18,000 would more be a luxury and a helping-hand than a necessity.

For some weird irrational reason, I find myself wanting to choose UCL. I think it's probably because I really liked it when I went for interview, it's in a nice location and the tuition system is more personal - smaller groups. On top of that, it is generally ranked more highly. Also, at KCL I would spend 2 years in France doing a full French law degree and I now think that that would be pretty intensive and I'm not convinced a French law degree would really help me much over a normal English law degree + year abroad.

[tkane]

(Original post by fawltyfan)
I don't think I should have problems financing my studies - I'm confident my parents can support me financially for my degree, so the £18,000 would more be a luxury and a helping-hand than a necessity.

For some weird irrational reason, I find myself wanting to choose UCL. I think it's probably because I really liked it when I went for interview, it's in a nice location and the tuition system is more personal - smaller groups. On top of that, it is generally ranked more highly. Also, at KCL I would spend 2 years in France doing a full French law degree and I now think that that would be pretty intensive and I'm not convinced a French law degree would really help me much over a normal English law degree + year abroad.

18k is nothing in the grand scheme of things, considering you will most likelly work for the next 40 years. It should not be a deciding factor unless you really do need the cash.

[fawltyfan]

(Original post by tkane)
18k is nothing in the grand scheme of things, considering you will most likelly work for the next 40 years. It should not be a deciding factor unless you really do need the cash.

Yeah that's the view I took. Made my choices today with minutes to spare! UCL firm (AAA) and Bristol insurance (AA) - Scottish Advanced Highers conditions btw. I feel happy with my choices.

[Copperknickers]

Good choices, I had pretty much the same offers, though I chose KCL since I'm doing Classics and they are pretty much on par with Oxbridge for that (in fact they were above them in the league tables a couple of years ago). A bit risky putting a conditional as your insurance though, I chose Edinburgh as mine since I got an unconditional there too. Out of interest, what were your prelim results?

[fawltyfan]

(Original post by Copperknickers)
Good choices, I had pretty much the same offers, though I chose KCL since I'm doing Classics and they are pretty much on par with Oxbridge for that (in fact they were above them in the league tables a couple of years ago). A bit risky putting a conditional as your insurance though, I chose Edinburgh as mine since I got an unconditional there too. Out of interest, what were your prelim results?

Yeah, I think I should be able to get at least AA though. My prelim results were AAC - got a C in history but that exam was a bit of a nightmare for me and I'm confident I won't repeat that in the final exam. And I think my dissertation is pretty good and that's 35%.

[Copperknickers]

Fair enough. My prelim results weren't too good, ABC, and I need two As. History was similarly a nightmare, I took it as a crash-advanced higher so I got the method of answering the questions a bit wrong ('historiography', pah :P) but hopefully that should be sorted now. French I think my folio is fine so that should push it up to an A even if I get a B in the exam.

[gtfo]

(Original post by tkane)
18k is nothing in the grand scheme of things, considering you will most likelly work for the next 40 years. It should not be a deciding factor unless you really do need the cash.

You cannot be serious

[tkane]

(Original post by gtfo)
You cannot be serious

I am, Kings with an 18k scholarship would not even remotely make me consider giving up my UCL offer.

But I don't particularly need any financial assitance so it may seem odd to others (I am a mature student, as you are!, and have run my own company for four years). This is why I added the line about actually needing the cash.

[gtfo]

(Original post by tkane)
I am, Kings with an 18k scholarship would not even remotely make me consider giving up my UCL offer.

But I don't particularly need any financial assitance so it may seem odd to others (I am a mature student, as you are!, and have run my own company for four years). This is why I added the line about actually needing the cash.

This makes your statement even more astonishing. Saying that a scholarship doesn't matter if you're independently wealthy is one thing, saying that £18k is nothing in the grand scheme of things is another thing entirely.

How many years would it take a working man to save that sort of money? Even a trainee solicitor in London living within his means would take years. On the average wage, it'd take you a year to EARN £18k. A years labour is nothing?

S**t, in most places in the UK, £18k would be a deposit on a house.

[darkccc]

(Original post by tkane)
I am, Kings with an 18k scholarship would not even remotely make me consider giving up my UCL offer.

But I don't particularly need any financial assitance so it may seem odd to others (I am a mature student, as you are!, and have run my own company for four years). This is why I added the line about actually needing the cash.

Though I'm not sure of the employment "culture" in the UK, I believe attaining an 18k scholarship (based on academic merit, I think) is a huge feat and would not be overlooked by firms or chambers. It shows that a university is willing to take that extra step to recognise your academic potential.

[tkane]

(Original post by darkccc)
Though I'm not sure of the employment "culture" in the UK, I believe attaining an 18k scholarship (based on academic merit, I think) is a huge feat and would not be overlooked by firms or chambers. It shows that a university is willing to take that extra step to recognise your academic potential.

Given that the DC shcolarship is being given to almost 1 in 4 freshers I doubt it will be viewed as something which will set you apart from the rest of competition.

The UCL freshfields sholarship is only going to be awared to two freshers per year so that type of scholarship is more likely to impress employers.

I am sure 18k would be incredibly nice to an 18yr old, however, it works out at £450 per year or £37.50 per month over a 40 year career. These are not the sort of sums which would entice me into giving up UCL.

[gtfo]

(Original post by tkane)
Given that the DC shcolarship is being given to almost 1 in 4 freshers I doubt it will be viewed as something which will set you apart from the rest of competition.

The UCL freshfields sholarship is only going to be awared to two freshers per year so that type of scholarship is more likely to impress employers.

I am sure 18k would be incredibly nice to an 18yr old, however, it works out at £450 per year or £37.50 per month over a 40 year career. These are not the sort of sums which would entice me into giving up UCL.

I might have taken UCL with the Freshfields scholarship over KCL with the DP scholarship, but that's another matter. I'm not so sure that potential employers will necessarily be aware that 75 people a year get the DP scholarship. I'll agree the merits of being in the top quartile aren't the same as being top of your year, but I think it's some way from being without merit.

It's interesting that you've considered the value of the scholarship over 40 years. Do you suppose there will be any more inherent value in having studied at UCL over KCL in 40 years (or 10 for that matter)? Your calculations also don't take into account the value of having that money now, when you're unable to work. Never mind compound interest or inflation, how much value do you assign to not having to work in term time to cover bills, to being able to afford international internships and summer schools, to having time to volunteer instead of earning?

The DP scholarship is the equivalent of working a 23 hour a week minimum wage job throughout term time. Sure, you're probably looking at more like a 16 hour job for that sort of money in London, but what value that free time invested on CV enhancing activities during university over 40 years?

I appreciate that you're independently wealthy, and that I'm banging on about this a bit, but the notion that £18k isn't an enormous amount of money ("nothing in the grand scheme of things"!!) absolutely infuriates me.

[tkane]

(Original post by gtfo)
It's interesting that you've considered the value of the scholarship over 40 years. Do you suppose there will be any more inherent value in having studied at UCL over KCL in 40 years (or 10 for that matter)?

Yes, whilst the difference isn't that significant, UCL is slightly above KCL, as you have said in your blog (Yes, I do read it). If you are looking to do something other than law once you graduate than UCL's overall reputation is also quite a bit higher than that of Kings.

(Original post by gtfo)

Your calculations also don't take into account the value of having that money now, when you're unable to work. Never mind compound interest or inflation, how much value do you assign to not having to work in term time to cover bills, to being able to afford international internships and summer schools, to having time to volunteer instead of earning?

This is a key point. I place no value in having that money now as I don't particularly need it. I am not saying 18k isn't a generous sum, but it is not a sum which would lure me away from UCL given that I consider UCL to be marginally better than Kings.

I am sure quite a few 18yr olds would be blinded by the money and would give up UCL for this, but this isn't a wise IMO unless you really need financial assitance.

I am not going to say that you will earn the 18k a few times over by going to UCL over Kings but I want to maximise my chances at the best job possible so the DC scholarship would not sway me.

[a.partridge]

(Original post by darkccc)
Though I'm not sure of the employment "culture" in the UK, I believe attaining an 18k scholarship (based on academic merit, I think) is a huge feat and would not be overlooked by firms or chambers. It shows that a university is willing to take that extra step to recognise your academic potential.

Yeah this all over. The difference between UCL and KCL is marginal on a CV (get realistic please) employers are always on about having things that 'stand out' so I think a kings degree with this scholarship is actually going to look better on the CV and get more interviews. Kings produce loads of good barristers and having this shows you were pretty much at the top of the intake.

It's not the case that everyone as UCL gets their job interview then they interview whoever is left from kings -.- and no I don't go to kings.


Also 18k is a huge amount of money to have spare, even when you are a trainee maybe on over 30k - by the time you have paid all the bills and lived etc you will hardly be putting anything in the bank. + think of all the extra stuff you could do while actually at uni.

please don't fool for all the rep hype seriously ;z


(clearly 1 person goes to UCL and was hoping that everyone at UCL gets their job interviews followed by everyone at kings)

[a.partridge]

(Original post by tkane)
Yes, whilst the difference isn't that significant, UCL is slightly above KCL, as you have said in your blog (Yes, I do read it). If you are looking to do something other than law once you graduate than UCL's overall reputation is also quite a bit higher than that of Kings.




This is a key point. I place no value in having that money now as I don't particularly need it. I am not saying 18k isn't a generous sum, but it is not a sum which would lure me away from UCL given that I consider UCL to be marginally better than Kings.

I am sure quite a few 18yr olds would be blinded by the money and would give up UCL for this, but this isn't a wise IMO unless you really need financial assitance.

I am not going to say that you will earn the 18k a few times over by going to UCL over Kings but I want to maximise my chances at the best job possible so the DC scholarship would not sway me.

you need to recognise that scholarship goes on the CV along with the degree and a Kings + prestigious scholarship will look stronger than a UCL + 0

People have really messed up ideas about what applying for a job is really like. Do you think firms actually would throw your application out because of your university? In reality it's going to come down to how well you interview and whether they interview you or not comes on the little things on your CV - not KCL vs UCL... madness

[tkane]

(Original post by a.partridge)
Yeah this all over. The difference between UCL and KCL is marginal on a CV (get realistic please) employers are always on about having things that 'stand out' so I think a kings degree with this scholarship is actually going to look better on the CV and get more interviews. Kings produce loads of good barristers and having this shows you were pretty much at the top of the intake.

It's not the case that everyone as UCL gets their job interview then they interview whoever is left from kings -.- and no I don't go to kings.


Also 18k is a huge amount of money to have spare, even when you are a trainee maybe on over 30k - by the time you have paid all the bills and lived etc you will hardly be putting anything in the bank. + think off all the extra stuff you could do while actually at uni.

please don't fool for all the rep hype seriously ;z

Given that 75 students a year are going to get the DC scholarship, I expect every firm to be aware of the award and its merits within 3 years as they will have seen many dozens of applicants with the same scholarship. I wouldn't put weight on the academic merit of the scholarship to be honest, its prestige will be diluted by the number given out. The financial incentive however is quite large so I would urge people in this situation to base their decision on whether they need financial assitance.

[a.partridge]

(Original post by tkane)

I am sure quite a few 18yr olds would be blinded by the money and would give up UCL for this, but this isn't a wise IMO unless you really need financial assitance.

What kind of scholarship is this anyway for 18K where you are not in a bad financial situation and don't have outstanding grades? ;o

UCL were prepared to offer me £1500 to go there but it would have cost more than that extra to live in london anyway and I can tell you that not going there has not made the slightest difference to my career prospects

[GStevens]

(Original post by gtfo)
I might have taken UCL with the Freshfields scholarship over KCL with the DP scholarship, but that's another matter.

It would have been a no brainer for me, the Freshfields scholarship is £30,000 over three years, guaranteed interview for training contract and fully funded LPC if successful. Plus access to Freshfields training and social functions. Plus 8 weeks paid placements at Freshfields. Difference is that people have been awarded the DP already, the Freshfields stuff only kicks off in late Sept, the successful candidates wont know until they have started, the DP people seem to have been awarded before they have even firmed. (Freshfields is an academic award for buying in talent to one specific law firm, the DP is an academic award for buying in talent wholesale to the university.)

Things might have been different if I had not accepted the UCL offer and cancelled my Kings interview. Had I had the Kings interview I would have been informed about the DP scholarship, something I was unaware of until I saw this thread.

I was undecided between the Kings 4 year PPL, a course that really appealed, and UCL's better financial package. When I was given the unconditional from UCL I just took it feeling that it made better sense. Given an unconditional from both UCL and Kings, the DP, as a 'bird in the hand' would have tipped the balance. I am very happy with my choice but it might have been different.

Anyone who thinks the £18,00 is insignificant is not living in the same world I inhabit.