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GDP growth at all costs is the essence of capitalism.

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    its depressing when so called socialists, such as the new french president francois hollande, try and compete with capitalists on the question of GDP growth.

    GDP growth is impossible without cheap money, debt and the consumerist materialistic culture.


    debt. cheap crap nobody needs. cheap food that makes people ill. destruction of the environment. depletion of natural resources.

    this is what GDP growth really means. it is the very essence of capitalism and it is simply not sustainable.

    instead of trying to outdo capitalists on the how they are going to stimulate growth, socialists should be trying to come up with new and more sustainable models for society that do not rely on never ending cycles of boom and bust and destructive consumerism.
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    And that is why Hollande is just center left "socialist".
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    It's quite clear that we need more jobs to combat unemployment. And that will mean that GDP will have to grow. If you actually have any kind of proposal as to how we're going to deal with unemployment if not by investment (and thereby GDP enlargement), I'd be glad to hear it.

    My guess is that you're just a troll who's not here to actually debate anything but rather let us know of your "considered" opinions.
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    Most on the economic right oppose further creation of debt and low interest rates and most so called socialists follow Keynes.
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    Growth at all costs is communist style thinking, i.e growth-addicts want to direct UK workers around until the tractor production GDP figures show the economy is doing well. In a capitalist/libertarian system we'd remove the burdens and taxes that restrict business and then let private sector workers decide for themselves how much 'growth' they want.
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    You are absolutely correct. We do need jobs creation to bring down unemployment. And yes, that does lead to GDP growth. In the short run, theres not much that can be done about this apart from investment to stimulate demand.

    But whats lead us all to this downturn has been an excessive consumerist nature which obviously builds an artificial bubble of fabricated demand, which will never be sustainable. The same thing will happen again, bubble will burst and people will loose jobs. This is a tried and tested model but we seem to like to stick to it.
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    GDP growth is what all governments should be aiming for. More GDP means people are better off, what government wouldnt want that? Cheap money and debt are not problems, these things arent real they are just part of the system to produce and distribute goods. Both are just numbers stored in computers somewhere and if the numbers mean people get more goods then they are a great thing. By achieving growth of course resources will be used but if it makes people better off then its worth it, there is no point having oil sat in the ground when it could be making peoples lives better. If the French don't achieve growth then all the European economies will overtake them and all their people will wonder how come they are the worst off in europe. No other system will ever be as successful as capitalism, it works too well.
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    (Original post by TheHansa)
    Most on the economic right oppose further creation of debt and low interest rates and most so called socialists follow Keynes.


    yes, its the height of irony that socialists would want to feed the capitalist system by spending money they don't have.
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    (Original post by Sternumator)
    GDP growth is what all governments should be aiming for. More GDP means people are better off, what government wouldnt want that? Cheap money and debt are not problems, these things arent real they are just part of the system to produce and distribute goods. Both are just numbers stored in computers somewhere and if the numbers mean people get more goods then they are a great thing. By achieving growth of course resources will be used but if it makes people better off then its worth it, there is no point having oil sat in the ground when it could be making peoples lives better. If the French don't achieve growth then all the European economies will overtake them and all their people will wonder how come they are the worst off in europe. No other system will ever be as successful as capitalism, it works too well.
    I'm sure your aware of how the last several years have panned out. We've all just been through the worst economic recession since the Great Depression. This time its not any normal crisis, its a Financial Crisis. The so called tools which are "part of the system" and leads to people being better of are the very tools which have put a lot of people back below the poverty line globally!Cheap money and debt have wrapped a web around us, we LIVE in a debt economy, and that distorts what true capitalism is supposed to achieve: a accurate allocation of goods and services to where they are needed most.
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    (Original post by natchina)
    yes, its the height of irony that socialists would want to feed the capitalist system by spending money they don't have.
    Apart from negging, trolling and regurgitating unimaginative slogans about the treachery of the centre-left, do you actually have an answer to what I asked?

    Unemployment is rising (already at 10% - the highest in more than 10 years) and people desperately need work.

    How do you provide people with work if not by investing and creating more jobs thereby boosting GDP?

    For right-wingers: it doesn't have to be public spending. It can easily be private spending (if investors are up to it). So this is not about socialism or government spending. It's about denying reality. Essentially denying the fact that we need more jobs and more jobs will mean a higher GDP. That's all.
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    (Original post by Sternumator)
    GDP growth is what all governments should be aiming for.
    I disagree, justice and a level playing field is what governments should be aiming for. If they see a regulation that prevents small businesses from competing with larger organisations they should have the decency to identify the problem and subsequently remove the regulation so it no longer hampers the smaller operators. If an environment like this produces growth then great, but growth isn't the overriding goal.
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    (Original post by Sternumator)
    GDP growth is what all governments should be aiming for. More GDP means people are better off, what government wouldnt want that? Cheap money and debt are not problems, these things arent real they are just part of the system to produce and distribute goods. Both are just numbers stored in computers somewhere and if the numbers mean people get more goods then they are a great thing. By achieving growth of course resources will be used but if it makes people better off then its worth it, there is no point having oil sat in the ground when it could be making peoples lives better. If the French don't achieve growth then all the European economies will overtake them and all their people will wonder how come they are the worst off in europe. No other system will ever be as successful as capitalism, it works too well.
    No it doesn't.
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    I'd say expectations of 'infinite growth' is perhaps the biggest fallacy of 21st Century economics.

    We don't have a system based on sustainability, we have a system based on the idea that we should expect year on year growth forever.

    Fiat money, the bubble will burst.
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    (Original post by agnelodsouza)
    You are absolutely correct. We do need jobs creation to bring down unemployment. And yes, that does lead to GDP growth. In the short run, theres not much that can be done about this apart from investment to stimulate demand.

    But whats lead us all to this downturn has been an excessive consumerist nature which obviously builds an artificial bubble of fabricated demand, which will never be sustainable. The same thing will happen again, bubble will burst and people will loose jobs. This is a tried and tested model but we seem to like to stick to it.


    i agree. i think a better and more sustainable capitalism would be the first step.

    people need to stop equating debt and cheap crap with prosperity. most people own so much junk. they could probably throw out 90% of the things they own and it would not make a difference to them.

    i think the world needs to step back from mass intensive production and go back to local industries. at the moment a few factories in china make goods for the entire planet when a lot of those goods could be made locally -- and as for the rest, it would be better if they not made at all.

    ( obviously, specialised technologies like i pad production etc could not be localised. )

    this would do a couple of things. 1: it would create millions of jobs. 2: those jobs would be secure from global downturns because local economies are self sufficient.
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    This is just like a question in an AQA ECON4 Jan 12 exam.

    note: I am not saying the OP is asking for help. -_-

    Discuss the view that the main reason for a country wanting to achieve sustained
    economic growth is to bring about an increase in private sector consumption.
    (25 marks)
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    (Original post by jumpingjesusholycow)
    I'd say expectations of 'infinite growth' is perhaps the biggest fallacy of 21st Century economics.

    We don't have a system based on sustainability, we have a system based on the idea that we should expect year on year growth forever.

    Fiat money, the bubble will burst.
    Uh oh, I sense a money creationist analysis. 'Fiat' had precious little to do bubble bursting, the system broke down simply because house prices had become so detached from average wages that people could no longer afford to make the repayments on the homes they were living in.
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    (Original post by natchina)
    i agree. i think a better and more sustainable capitalism would be the first step.

    people need to stop equating debt and cheap crap with prosperity. most people own so much junk. they could probably throw out 90% of the things they own and it would not make a difference to them.

    i think the world needs to step back from mass intensive production and go back to local industries. at the moment a few factories in china make goods for the entire planet when a lot of those goods could be made locally.

    this would do a couple of things. 1: it would create millions of jobs. 2: those jobs would be secure from global downturns because local economies are self sufficient.
    If we outlawed the use of JCBs and made people use shovels instead this too would create millions of jobs, but it would be a totally counter productive measure because it's a much more inefficient way of doing things.

    People don't need jobs. They need food, fuel, shelter and all the other necessities required for survival. The goal of economy is to provide these things as efficiently and painlessly as possible.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    If we outlawed the use of JCBs and made people use shovels instead this too would create millions of jobs, but it would be a totally counter productive measure because it's a much more inefficient way of doing things.

    People don't need jobs. They need food, fuel, shelter and all the other necessities required for survival. The goal of economy is to provide these things as efficiently and painlessly as possible.
    :rofl: The Nazis tried a similar thing to attempt to abolish unemployment, they gave tax breaks to companies which used human labour over machinery. It might create a few more jobs in the short term but the prices of goods would rocket.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    If we outlawed the use of JCBs and made people use shovels instead this too would create millions of jobs, but it would be a totally counter productive measure because it's a much more inefficient way of doing things.

    People don't need jobs. They need food, fuel, shelter and all the other necessities required for survival. The goal of economy is to provide these things as efficiently and painlessly as possible.


    localism is not the same as luddite-ism. it just means local areas sustain themselves better.

    so for example, instead of one mega factory that employs 200 people making crappy plastic cheese for an entire country, cheese could be made locally employing thousands up and down the country. the same could apply for most food, clothes, shoes, furniture etc.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    People don't need jobs. They need food, fuel, shelter and all the other necessities required for survival. The goal of economy is to provide these things as efficiently and painlessly as possible.
    Essentially, to acquire food, fuel and shelter people need the capital to do so. To have capital, you need jobs.

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