[flying plum]

(Original post by DomPugh)
I don't think the majority of society would class eating meat as a "normative wrong"

My point was just because it is 'natural' doesn't necessarily mean its right. You may conclude, for other ethical and/or rational reasons that it's ok to eat meat. But IMO that it is 'natural' isn't a good enough reason.

[DomPugh]

Your point was also that eating meat is normative "wrong" implying that its intrinsically wrong. However, this is highly unlikely that the majority of people eat meat?

And in my opinion many natural things are good.

[miser]

I went vegetarian at New Years because I suppose I feel that causing unnecessary suffering isn't a very good standard for living ethically. I'm not sure if I will go vegan in the future - maybe I am still being somewhat hypocritical by understanding that the dairy trade is heavily linked with the slaughter trade and still staying only vegetarian. I find it difficult to contemplate how I would live day-to-day having to abstain from so many products.

I've been coming across some of the arguments you posted myself. I'm often surprised how hostile people can react when I tell them I've become vegetarian. Just friday someone told me, "you've gone down in my estimations." Vegetarianism and veganism are still on the up though, I hope it continues in that direction.

[SitBackAndRelapse]

Two words: Vegan powers.

[Norfolkadam]

How do you tell if someone's a vegan?

Don't worry, they'll tell you.

[Patriot Rich]

(Original post by Elf.)

1. "The cows would all die if we didn't use them for meat/leather/etc..."

NO. The reason they are domesticated is for human consumption. If they weren't used in this way by humans, then surely they'd be in the wild. The reason a cow is bred in captivity is because it is being supplied for a human demand. If it wasn't demanded, then it would not be supplied.

The problem with this argument is that many modern cow species have been bred to the point that they can't give birth without the assistance of a human. 'Freeing' them would actually kill them and condemning a whole species to extinction. If you really cared about animals the least you'd do is keep some for milk. On that topic it is also extremely painful for cows not to be milked, which is not guaranteed in the wild where calves are easily lost. Once domesticated an animal is never the same again, it can't just return to living in the wild.

In my honest opinion, which probably won't be popular with a potential vegan, certain species of animal are essentially the property of mankind. They've been domesticated for so long and we rely on each other. A cow can't live without humans and humans need the meat, milk, leather and a while ago other parts such as the bone to survive. Think how different cows are to bison and buffalo, the typical cow you see in the field simply wouldn't stand a chance.

[Ae0n]

...And knowledge of chemical compounds which make us allergic. However, life saving medicines are probably a different story. I believe that products should be tested on humans as far as possible by offering large monetary incentive or something

How do you propose we figure out how a disease presents itself across a lifetime?? We need this information so we can cure diseases more effectively. Unfortunately at the moment the only answer is animal testing because the only thing close to a human is a human and who would willingly inoculate them self with a disease? Are you going to? NO. Yes it is very cruel and it upsets me too but until there is a better alternative such as growing organs from stem cells then you'll just have to deal with it.

[abc:)]

If you want to go vegan you should go for it, it can be a really healthy lifestyle if you do it right and make sure you get enough calories, and especially get enough protein and calcium etc.

Also, [and I say this as a meat eater I'm afraid] if you're vegetarian for moral reasons, you might as well go vegan, because the issues you hold with eating meat are also true with leather, dairy products, etc... eg animals being mistreated and killed. So I do sometimes take issue with people who are vegetarians for ethical reasons but have no problem with wearing uggs and drinking milk.

[Tahooper]

I don't see the point in being vegan.

I'm thinking about becoming a pescetarian though, after I have a sausage sarnie for tea of course

[Bellissima]

(Original post by JCC-MGS)
It isn't difficult to eat out when you're vegan, even Maccies has a vegan burger as of a few days ago. Try it out and see how it goes, PM me if you have questions I've been vegan for years

i wouldn't consider buying a vegan burger from mac Ds very vegan seeing as you would be giving money to a company that routinely slaughters animals to make low quality meat products.

i eat at mac ds occasionally btw, i am not vegan, but i just wouldn't see buying from mc ds a very vegan thing to do.

[JMET]

(Original post by Ae0n)
How do you propose we figure out how a disease presents itself across a lifetime?? We need this information so we can cure diseases more effectively. Unfortunately at the moment the only answer is animal testing because the only thing close to a human is a human and who would willingly inoculate them self with a disease? Are you going to? NO. Yes it is very cruel and it upsets me too but until there is a better alternative such as growing organs from stem cells then you'll just have to deal with it.

Whats wrong with all the scum we have clogging up our prison and court systems? The worse the crime the more risky the clinical trial. Problems solved! : D

[JCC-MGS]

(Original post by Bellissima)
i wouldn't consider buying a vegan burger from mac Ds very vegan seeing as you would be giving money to a company that routinely slaughters animals to make low quality meat products.

i eat at mac ds occasionally btw, i am not vegan, but i just wouldn't see buying from mc ds a very vegan thing to do.

Most food brands belong to massive conglomerates, and even if they aren't then their expenses they pay to landlords, shipping companies, packaging companies etc will eventually pass through the hands of food companies that aren't vegan because those conglomerates are part of larger conglomerates which operate in other areas either directly or through shares and whatnot, it's how the economy is structured. Unless you're some hippie living on homegrown carrots who has no job and buys nothing your money somehow benefits someone somewhere making a non-vegan product. Man's no hippie, so I'm not gonna try and trace where my money goes

[NDGAARONDI]

(Original post by abc:))
So I do sometimes take issue with people who are vegetarians for ethical reasons but have no problem with wearing uggs and drinking milk.

It's arguably more 'humane' to eat meat from an animal that is killed quickly than to drink milk, which is a product of enforced impregnation. To be honest, a lot of people can be selective. Gordon Brown's wife, Sarah, I hear is a vegetarian but she bemoaned about the veal issue with Italians. You get meat eaters who bemoan of Halal/Kosher slaughter while have no qualms of eating fish, lobster or crab.

[Altaïr]

(Original post by Elf.)
I've been thinking about veganism recently as I'm already a vegetarian and have encountered the following arguments upon discussion with friends. Here are my conclusions to the following arguments against!

1. "The cows would all die if we didn't use them for meat/leather/etc..."

NO. The reason they are domesticated is for human consumption. If they weren't used in this way by humans, then surely they'd be in the wild. The reason a cow is bred in captivity is because it is being supplied for a human demand. If it wasn't demanded, then it would not be supplied.

2. "What about GM veggies?"

The problem with GM is that it will probably become increasingly necessary in the future of our planet with population issues and increasing food shortage. The idea of veganism is minimal harm of sentient beings. I don't know much about GM and the chemicals used though.

3. "But how will we test new medicines and cosmetics?"

Surely we have all the cosmetic ingredients tested which we need to know about... And knowledge of chemical compounds which make us allergic. However, life saving medicines are probably a different story. I believe that products should be tested on humans as far as possible by offering large monetary incentive or something.

4. "But vitamin tablets are stupid and expensive. It's kind of antisocial to be vegan at other peoples house isn't it?"
Until veganism becomes more widespread, it'd be difficult to eat out vegan. However, my idea is that as far as possible I will eat vegan.
Vitamin tablets - why not if they're available and you can afford to do so.

5. "But its sooo unhealthy!"
Complete rubbish, as calcium is naturally occurring in some green veggies, as is iron.
Meat actually increases your risk of various cancers and heart disease.

So what about organic? What about free range?
Free range is dubious, as male hens are still killed for being the wrong gender. Organic - I'd love to hear some opinions on! Thanks for reading

What makes plants any different from animals? You are still claiming life, why not claim a bit of both, and have tasty meals? The fact that eating once living things is necessary for our own survival makes it inherently right.

[Snagprophet]

I take pride that I eat the meat from animals. Especially lamb, in which I take pride in eating dead baby animals hahahahaha lol

[NDGAARONDI]

(Original post by Altaïr)
What makes plants any different from animals? You are still claiming life, why not claim a bit of both, and have tasty meals? The fact that eating once living things is necessary for our own survival makes it inherently right.

Conversley, mortuary cannablism and the eating of dead phoetuses should not be prohibited too yes?

My issue is that countries forbid certain animals in being eaten. Meat eaters should be able to eat Corgi burgers and piri piri Swans on the Queen's Jubilee.

[Altaïr]

(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
Conversley, mortuary cannablism and the eating of dead phoetuses should not be prohibited too yes?

My issue is that countries forbid certain animals in being eaten. Meat eaters should be able to eat Corgi burgers and piri piri Swans on the Queen's Jubilee.

Cannablism is not the same thing. I can't think of any animals that eat their own. I'm sure I'll get disproved here, but it therefore isn't natural. In protection from extinction, it is fair enough that certain animals are forbidden to eat, but for morality or any other issues that are subjective, there is no reason why we shouldn't eat any living organism.

[flying plum]

(Original post by Altaïr)
Cannablism is not the same thing. I can't think of any animals that eat their own. I'm sure I'll get disproved here, but it therefore isn't natural. In protection from extinction, it is fair enough that certain animals are forbidden to eat, but for morality or any other issues that are subjective, there is no reason why we shouldn't eat any living organism.

polar bears are the first to spring to mind. also, hamsters. i suspect there are more, but i'm not expert. not that i'm arguing for cannibalism, but there are better arguments against it than 'it's not natural'.

[NDGAARONDI]

(Original post by Altaïr)
Cannablism is not the same thing. I can't think of any animals that eat their own. I'm sure I'll get disproved here, but it therefore isn't natural. In protection from extinction, it is fair enough that certain animals are forbidden to eat, but for morality or any other issues that are subjective, there is no reason why we shouldn't eat any living organism.

Plenty of animals eat their own. And what has being natural got to do with it? Humans do plenty of things that are supposedly unnatural (medicine - both cosmetic and otherwise, drinking cow's milk etc.) so the natural argument should not be exclusive to predation. People in Papua New Guinea practice mortuary cannablism, despite being ilelgalised recently, so does this make it natural? I've heard that China eats aborted foetuses, though I've not found anything substantial that confirms the practice, but if people say it's okay that you should eat any living creature then the consumption of aborted foetuses and mortuary cannablism should not be phohibited. Further, you cannot put down other cultures where animals are eaten, whether they are endangered, like whales and dolphins, or because they are "cute and fluffy", like cats, dogs and seals.

[Nick100]

The cows, pigs, chickens and other domesticated animals would certainly go extinct without human demand. Two billion cows would not survive in the wild.