[Maira_]

(Original post by florrick)
that's a viewpoint held by many muslims across the world. They don't believe bin laden was behind the 9/11.






In the us elections.
"without the mobilization of the saudi-funded islamic groups, george w. Bush would not be president today."[1]



bush became unpopular. Guess who the king backed?
"thank god for bringing obama to the presidency"
obama's election created "great hope" in the muslim world. [2]



surprise, surprise.






Seriously? What doesn't make sense is that no-one sees the light of the day, if they speak out against the west and is a scholar in saudi arabia or funded by the kingdom. They have to kiss the usa's ass by keeping silent. As i said, they're all gawping against syria for a reason- the west doesn't like assad. Zakir naik may have warm relations with saudi arabia because fact is saudi arabia has a lot of convenient leverage at their disposal- islam's most sacred places on their land. But at the same time, naik has spoken out against bush- something unimaginable for a saudi-backed scholar.

its all america!!! Wake up

[TheRustaman]

(Original post by Maira_)
your close minded.. Read the holy scriptures theyre soo relevant for today
eg: the quraan states scientific facts that are only just discovered today... HOW?
RESEARCH

You're*

And no I'm not. All religions spout the same kind of stuff so i treat them all equally - they're nonsense. If a religion can do something to change my view on that then i am welcome to suggestions.

What scientific facts are these then? Are they able provide me scientific proof of Allah?

[PandyAndy]

(Original post by Maira_)
your close minded.. Read the holy scriptures theyre soo relevant for today
eg: the quraan states scientific facts that are only just discovered today... HOW?
RESEARCH

Simple-it doesn't.

[Maira_]

In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

[S-man10]

(Original post by Maira_)
x

Let us apply the theory to a poem by a Greek philosopher before the time of the quran, who predicted more scientific fact than the Quran, what are the odds he wasn't divine?

Btw, the the mathemtical Theory of probability is just a theory, like the theory of evolution which is also just a theory so your your argument is poorly constructed and wrong..

(Original post by Maira_)
http://doyoukno.wordpress.com/2008/1...-a-non-muslim/

READ THIS CAREFULLY TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK..

I refuse to read it on the grounds that it is Zakir Naik who is ignorant on philosophical matters

[MrBlueMo0n]

Oooh! Lots of touchy feely poeple here!

But the bottom line is that none of these religions will be the last. It will be a new (new to us now) religion in many generation to come. Something's bound to come up, and all the other religions are bound to die out - unless you truly believe that the world will end soon...


Pleas don't thumbs me down because I'm not backing up your particular religion, we have to act impartially here as there are so many different cultures - it's just stupid for everyone to disagree

[MrBlueMo0n]

(Original post by Maira_)
In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.

A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.

Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.

At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.

The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.

Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.

The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

That's pretty cool. I don't know much about the Qur'an, so could you tell me some of the more basic and fundamental things that come with it. For example, the Bible has Jesus, erm, some other stuff about miracles and whatever. I don't know.

Anyway, what I'm saying, is that even though the Qur'an seems to be divine, it must say some funky stuff about God or Alah or whatever, right? So you can't just go about saying stuff like this, because it's not really major (the moon stuff etc.) compared to stuff about heaven etc.

[The Mr Z]

(Original post by Maira_)
It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.

Firstly, that's a huge logical fallacy. Does not follow at all! Very unlikely events happen all the time, every event that ever happens is negligibly likely.

Secondly, the probability of guessing each is not equal. You fail probabilities. It is completely impossible that living things be made of gold - the densities are all wrong for a start, as are the electrical properties.

Secondly, you've forgotten how much of what is in the Quran is either wrong, or was actually already known.

Eg - Earth was Spherical was worked out by ancient Greeks thousands of years before the Quaran's writing, and was known to Mohamed's contemporaries at the time. They had even estimated the circumference of the Earth and were correct to within about 5%. The light from the moon being reflected was also discovered by the greeks who worked out that the phases of the moon correlated to the angles between the Earth, Moon and Sun.

Every living thing is not made of water, it gets that completely wrong. Every living thing is made of carbon. Living things contain significant amounts of water but that's just doing nothing, but the thing that makes them living, organic things is the carbon.
The claim of course comes from the fact that living things all consume water in some form, and contain it. This was known at the time. So a smart guess originating from already known facts, but actually completely wrong.




When you know the science you realise how pathetically false and tenuous these claims all are. Next you'll be claiming "tracks in the sky" refers to airplanes, but in fact it completely misunderstands how planes work.

If your book was divine revelation it would be correct, exactly. It is not. It is wrong.

[M1011]

I voted for Islam.

Generally Islamic countries tend to be less developed then the West (not intended as an insult), and I think that it is social development that will kill off religions. Therefore I think Islam will outlast the likes of Christianity.

Personally I hope all religions disappear. It's ludicrous that in this day and age so many people still believe in such obvious fabrications. Believing in the Bible etcetera is no different from believing in the Harry Potter books in my opinion. Religion is the single greatest threat to humanity.

[Love4All]

Definitely Islam

[Maira_]

ITS RIGHT. I DONT KNOW WHAT YOUR ON ABOUT..
THE PROBABILITY IS JUST A EXAMPLE TO MAKE YOU UNDERSTAND BETTER!
BTW the greeks came after the quraans revelation im sure.

[Maira_]

i believe the monotheistic religions are true..

its a believers duty to spread the word of the religion..

[Maira_]

(Original post by s-man10)
let us apply the theory to a poem by a greek philosopher before the time of the quran, who predicted more scientific fact than the quran, what are the odds he wasn't divine?

Btw, the the mathemtical theory of probability is just a theory, like the theory of evolution which is also just a theory so your your argument is poorly constructed and wrong..



I refuse to read it on the grounds that it is zakir naik who is ignorant on philosophical matters

why whats wrong with him

[Maira_]

(Original post by MrBlueMo0n)
That's pretty cool. I don't know much about the Qur'an, so could you tell me some of the more basic and fundamental things that come with it. For example, the Bible has Jesus, erm, some other stuff about miracles and whatever. I don't know.

Anyway, what I'm saying, is that even though the Qur'an seems to be divine, it must say some funky stuff about God or Alah or whatever, right? So you can't just go about saying stuff like this, because it's not really major (the moon stuff etc.) compared to stuff about heaven etc.

The basic teachings of Islam are few but each forms a whole way of life; a way of thinking and a way of dealing with life's problems. If correctly understood, the creed of Islam guides us through the ups and downs of life, steering us to success in this life and the next.

[Maira_]

(Original post by MrBlueMo0n)
That's pretty cool. I don't know much about the Qur'an, so could you tell me some of the more basic and fundamental things that come with it. For example, the Bible has Jesus, erm, some other stuff about miracles and whatever. I don't know.

Anyway, what I'm saying, is that even though the Qur'an seems to be divine, it must say some funky stuff about God or Alah or whatever, right? So you can't just go about saying stuff like this, because it's not really major (the moon stuff etc.) compared to stuff about heaven etc.

http://www.islamondemand.com/30_facts.html

[MrBlueMo0n]

(Original post by Maira_)
ITS RIGHT. I DONT KNOW WHAT YOUR ON ABOUT..
THE PROBABILITY IS JUST A EXAMPLE TO MAKE YOU UNDERSTAND BETTER!
BTW the greeks came after the quraans revelation im sure.

Try to quote me next time

I don't really care if the Qur'an said things that were right. It must have said something wrong as well - or not?

The point is, I don't think that anybody in the world can say stuff like this (about God or whatever takes your fancy). I don't think there should be any questions. Not anything. We should just chill, and wait. Even if we 'do' have connections with some gods or some random spirit that apparently has a name, what change does it make?

[Ayshizzle]

(Original post by Maira_)
BTW the greeks came after the quraans revelation im sure.

LOL no they definitely didn't...

Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle... They all said that the Earth was spherical. They were around almost 1000 years before Muhammad was born.

Anaxagoras postulated that the moon reflected light from the sun. He was also born about 1000 years before Muhammad.

[Maira_]

(Original post by MrBlueMo0n)
Try to quote me next time

I don't really care if the Qur'an said things that were right. It must have said something wrong as well - or not?

The point is, I don't think that anybody in the world can say stuff like this (about God or whatever takes your fancy). I don't think there should be any questions. Not anything. We should just chill, and wait. Even if we 'do' have connections with some gods or some random spirit that apparently has a name, what change does it make?

Sorry for the late reply.. To my knowledge the holy book Quraan is errror free. As it wasnt written by man it was sent down by God to the messenger this was the revelation, the last holy book.. Which was sent down as the final message to warn and tell people about the trials of this life, and about the hereafter. The Quraan tells muslims the way to live life... It also includes facts which are relevant to us today..

Well I guess thats your opinion. I would say if your curious or want to know about something then dig deep and find it, of course somethings well never know but as the holy books were sent down and are clear then it important and people will follow and will have connection to God and be conscience about their deeds etc.. I believe in ONE GOD and spirits not so sure about..

[Flash7]

I hope that there isn't any religion left on Earth. Religion keeps mankind in the dark and does not allow for us to progress, scientifically or morally.

I've heard the arguments that we cannot have morality without God. Well, that's only if you believe in God. If you believe that God was created by man, including all of his various moral teachings, then you can see that man has the ability to understand morality.

Numerous religions taught that it was okay to have a slave. Islam was kind enough to mention that we should treat our slaves nicely. As human morality evolved, we realised that slavery was wrong. It was the church and other religions that held their old fashioned views. They were among the last to agree that slavery was wrong.

We now know that racism is wrong. Many religions were late in adopting this view. Mormonism still argues that black people are bad and that if they do good deeds, they will eventually become lighter in their skin color and become white.

Next will be equal treatment for women. We have seen this happen more and more in well-developed countries. Ahemmmm..Middle East, you're kinda lagging there.

Gay rights is a moral issue that's at the forefront. Here's how it will play out. We will recognize that equality would indicate that they should have equal rights. The morality of humans will change, followed by eventual acceptance of the church of all religions. And it's simple, if the church does not follow suite, it will lose followers and canot bring in the money it needs to survive. So, it will either adapt or perish. Either way, as a whole, it will change it's morality to the evelutionary morality of humans.

So, all religion is really doing is blocking the eventual progression of humanity. If it ceased to exist, we wouldn't fight each other as much, have as much prejudice, and would focus our efforts towards scientific advancement, rather than living in fear about going to heaven or hell.

[derangedyoshi]

Christianity flourished best when it was intolerant and unreasonable - when people literally believed that if they or their children were not Christians they would be punished in Hell for all eternity. Obviously some still believe that, but on the whole Western Christianity has become more reasonable and has adapted to the modern world, and where has that got it? Church attendance figures freefalling. It makes sense that once you say it's all right not to be a Christian, people are more likely to think about whether they want to be a Christian or not, and some of them will decide not to be. Then their children won't be raised in the religion, making them much less likely to be Christians, and the same with their children's children, etc etc.

Meanwhile Islam is still pretty unreasonable and doesn't wish to bend itself to conform with the modern world, and they will perhaps learn from the fate of Christianity not to do so. So I'd think Islam has a reasonable chance of surviving the longest out of the major religions.

I'm an ex-Christian atheist btw, if it matters. And I hope Islam does soften itself and be more reasonable, for the sake of kids who are brought up as Muslims who are female, or gay, or who become atheists and are rejected by their families and friends. It's just that I don't think it will - not for a while, at least.