[S-man10]

(Original post by jmj)
There are millions of Christians who are extremely intelligent overall and yet become Christians, therefore I think it's quite inaccurate to claim Christians are idiots/gullible considering the people that actually are Christians.

I wouldn't say so, or rather wouldn't say "millions of extremely intelligent Christians". Like I mentioned, intelligence or genius in one aspect does not mean an overall genius. However, you would be quite false to mention extreme intelligence. Intelligence? Yes... Extreme intelligence? All together a different story.

[jmj]

(Original post by S-man10)
I wouldn't say so, or rather wouldn't say "millions of extremely intelligent Christians". Like I mentioned, intelligence or genius in one aspect does not mean an overall genius. However, you would be quite false to mention extreme intelligence. Intelligence? Yes... Extreme intelligence? All together a different story.

What's your evidence to say otherwise? I know plenty of extremely intelligent Christians and that's just my personal acquaintances.

[SnoochToTheBooch]

(Original post by jmj)
That doesn't answer my question of how highly intelligent people become Christians. Have you ever investigated the Bible for yourself?

As the stuff you've said- the reason Jesus is able to do all of that is because He's God; the creator of the universe- He's perfectly capable then to manipulate the laws of the universe in order to reveal His power and authority. The only thing you have to trust in for Christianity to be extremely plausible is that God exists. It certainly wasn't 'made up' 11 out of 12 apostles died for their claims to see Jesus rise from the dead and the last one, John, was imprisoned on a penal colony on the Isle of Patmos. They claimed to see him, eat with him, touch Him etc. They were either telling the truth or dying for something they knew to be false- why would anybody die for a lie?

Also, in one of the oldest and most reliable manuscripts, Paul talks about the centrality of the resurrection. He mentions how 500 people saw Jesus rise and how most of them were still alive at the time Paul was writing his letter, so his readers could go check it up for themselves- considering these circumstances, it's quite a claim to say every Christian is gullible and is an idiot for trusting in it. Faith in the Bible means trusting in evidence, not believing in something despite a lack of evidence. Again, have you ever checked it out for yourself?

if a person buys into all that stuff then can they really be "highly intelligent"? If they take it seriously then they can't be all that rational. That's also conveniently ignoring all the "highly intelligent" people that think it's nonsense.

And yes, I have investigated the bible. I was born into a catholic household, went to a catholic school, was at church every sunday until my mid teens. I know exactly what it's all about and I can see through it.

Faith in the bible does not mean trusting in evidence at all. What evidence? That's exactly the problem with it, there's no reason to take any of it seriously at all. It's an old book full of bat**** mental stories that have been discredited for a long time now. It contains lies, any honest, sensible person with a little bit of an education should be able to see this.

What if someone was going around today making all these crazy claims? You'd rightly laugh in their face. Why should it suddenly become so plausible just because it's in an old book? Because a lot of people trust in it? Because of the fear of eternal torture in a lake of fire if you dare to question it? Because people would be upset if you turned against it?
It's built on fear and guilt-tripping, it's brainwashing in the truest sense and it doesn't stand up to questioning.

[S-man10]

(Original post by jmj)
What's your evidence to say otherwise? I know plenty of extremely intelligent Christians and that's just my personal acquaintances.

Likewise, I'm saying its my personal experience. However, the fault in your reasoning is going about saying "extreme intelligence" when what is your standard or basis of measuring intelligence and where does it reach extreme?

[Okashira]

Wait a minute, science has proven a woman can become pregnant without intercouse. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_insemination) Stem cells can possibly be used to regenerate limbs. (Something Jesus did). Science also suggest that a strong, consistent wind can part a body of water. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/s...-happened.html)

Yet Christians are gullible for believing those things happened if God truly exists? God would have done these things because He knows a whole lot more science than we do. In fact, He's the Omniscientist. Ultimately, I believe the more discoveries that we make, the plainer it is to see that God truly exist.

[KJane]

They have a right to talk about it. It just annoys me when they can't accept no for an answer. My friend is a Christian but her boyfriend is atheist yet she says she's really pleased because she's got him to read the Bible and that he'll convert, when this all got into a bit of a friendly debate about religion and such, every time I made my case she kept cutting me off with "I just expect people to respect my opinion." Yet she clearly didn't give me the same thought.

This is what I find really annoying about some theists and their attempts to convert others.

[S-man10]

(Original post by Okashira)
Wait a minute, science has proven a woman can become pregnant without intercouse. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_insemination) Stem cells can possibly be used to regenerate limbs. (Something Jesus did). Science also suggest that a strong, consistent wind can part a body of water. (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/s...-happened.html)

Yet Christians are gullible for believing those things happened if God truly exists? God would have done these things because He knows a whole lot more science than we do. In fact, He's the Omniscientist. Ultimately, I believe the more discoveries that we make, the plainer it is to see that God truly exist.

Do you not get tired of the 'god of the gaps' argument?

Sciences hasn't proven woman can before pregnant without intercourse, it is the one which developed techniques to impregnate woman on their wish. Science also suggested the universe could have come from nothing...

[spocckka]

It's fair for anyone to say pretty much what they want, but since religion is pretty much a universally bad thing for a modern society, they are only going to do harm by attracting people to faith.

[Okashira]

(Original post by S-man10)
Do you not get tired of the 'god of the gaps' argument?

Sciences hasn't proven woman can before pregnant without intercourse, it is the one which developed techniques to impregnate woman on their wish. Science also suggested the universe could have come from nothing...

I'm just showing that some of these things that people say in that God is using magic, and that this stuff is fairytale, might be jumping the gun a little. They are throwing the baby out with the bath water. Cause it seems like with more and more discoveries we make, I see many similarities to what is written in the Bible.

Right now some scientists are working on string theory. This is something else that seems eerily similar to how God created. God spoke the universe into existence. Of course we know with sound, vibrations are the key. So scientists are supposing these tiny vibrating strings essentially make up the universe and/or created the universe. That sounds (pun) pretty close to what Genesis stated.

[miss_limbu]

I have a good muslim friend and she says all non-muslims will be punished for not accepting islam. I want to be friend with all people but i do not want to be converted into any religion no matter how good they are and how much correct they are and how much wrong we are. i have been a hindu and buddhist all my life and i have lived all my life with cultural tradition and moral values. i am from Nepal.... i dont know what is written in vedas or other religious book. i cannot argue with any other religion people because i don't know the fact from the ancient script book...people critise me for praying idols and all but i love all the chants, mantra, meditation, bells from the temple, songs bhajan and living life with compassion. i will never give up my religion.

just listen to people who try to tell things about their god, its good to take in good things.
if you are really thinking of converting than learn your own religion in depth and try not to change just because the world is changing into their religion. look at your own things, your own culture but learn moral values from other religion.

[Bohedie]

we all have a right to our own beliefs. I respect others in their religion, I will ask questions if I am curious about their belief but I will not stop them. So why should it be acceptable vice versa?

If you burst into a devout religious home and begun telling them they are wasting their lives as life after death does not exist or whatever it is that you may believe and trying to destroy their beliefs that is wrong.

And trying to shatter and atheist view is also destroying a belief. So why is it acceptable it is the same thing essentially.

[jumpingjesusholycow]

I don't see why it wouldn't be fair as long as it's also fair to say 'sorry, not interested, buzz off'.

[PeterOkenla11]

(Original post by pizzle223)
I'm not religious. I did go to a CofE primary school and I understand that many people are religious for their own different reasons.

But is it fair for religious people to approach me in the street and to knock on my door trying to convert me to religion?

Only once can I say that I've ever been offended by this and it was in a situation on Oxford Street where a Hare Krishna began talking to me and basically told me he could make my life a lot better than what it is. Personally I'm pretty happy as it is.

Now if I was to begin approaching religious people and telling them they could be a lot happier if they forgot all about their religion I'm sure there would be outrage.

So is it fair for people to randomly approach any stranger and try to push religion onto them?

I'm not complaining and would never treat anyone different due to there religious beliefs.. but thought it could be a good discussion.

Discuss.

Tbh, Yes its ok. First you need to understand that these people actually believe in the religion they follow and the concepts behind them E.g. Heaven and hell.
I ask you this, if you too believed that there was a heaven and a hell, wouldnt you do the best you can to make sure atleast the ones you love make it to heaven?! Try and understand there logic, they do it out of there perception of kindess and love.
If you are not interested then its your choice, so long as they do not coerse you, THERE IS NO PROBLEM.

[Perseveranze]

As Muslims we have to convey the message, it's the least we could do But tbh, we hardly go door to door or randomly approach people. That's more of a Christian/Mormon sorta thing.

Usually we set up stalls/tables in public crowded places and people come to us, ask questions etc. and take with them books/cd's. Believe it or not, but most of the time it's the person's own interest in our faith that leads us to preaching to them, rather than the other way around (approaching randomers and preaching).

So if they argue with you, say, "I have submitted myself to Allah [in Islam], and [so have] those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture and [to] the unlearned, "Have you submitted yourselves?" And if they submit [in Islam], they are rightly guided; but if they turn away - then upon you is only the [duty of] notification. And Allah is Seeing of [His] servants. (Q 3:20)

[Spaz Man]

Why not? Freedom of conscience and speech right? I'm sure if you object they'll stop.

[Dmon1Unlimited]

2 things...

1) as long as they suggest and not harrass... if they say no, then you gtfo...

2) as long as you dont get pissed off if people try to convert you into another religion or an atheist...

[Mr.Zen]

I really do not agree with people trying to convert others to their viewpoint. I think it is selfish to do so. Everyone has the right to believe what they want, and no-one should try and change that. Share your views and beliefs, sure, and if people agree/have an affinity with it and adopt your beliefs then that's cool. But no-one should actively attempt to change people's views. Live and let live.

[jmj]

(Original post by S-man10)
Likewise, I'm saying its my personal experience. However, the fault in your reasoning is going about saying "extreme intelligence" when what is your standard or basis of measuring intelligence and where does it reach extreme?

I see your point my basis is people I know who are of extremely intelligent professions e.g. doctors (both medical and scientific e.g. physicians). I wasn't trying to imply anybody has an 'average intelligence' or are less intelligent, just simply that I know plenty of people who would otherwise be seen as extremely intelligent people but are still seen as irrational/unintelligent because they are Christians.

[Christianlady]

(Original post by pizzle223)
I'm not religious. I did go to a CofE primary school and I understand that many people are religious for their own different reasons.

But is it fair for religious people to approach me in the street and to knock on my door trying to convert me to religion?

Hello Pizzle,

I think it's fair I guess, though it's just as fair to say "not interested" I know I have said "not interested" to people before, who have wanted to convert me.

I have Muslim friends who strive to "revert" me, which I appreciate, because I know they sincerely believe what they believe is true, and in their belief, I'd be tortured forever in hell, so they want to rescue me from a future eternal torture chamber. I find that commendable, for people to want to rescue others from a future painful experience. Now, I don't believe what they believe is true, and basically, through my studies, my ideas of what hell is inclines more the Jewish Orthodox ideas of hell than even Christian ideas, interestingly.

So, to me, I think it's fair to talk to people about one's belief, and it's just as fair for people to say "not interested" or express what they believe. I do believe politeness and agreeing to disagree makes the world a better and more peaceful place.

People are diverse after all.

Only once can I say that I've ever been offended by this and it was in a situation on Oxford Street where a Hare Krishna began talking to me and basically told me he could make my life a lot better than what it is. Personally I'm pretty happy as it is.

Now if I was to begin approaching religious people and telling them they could be a lot happier if they forgot all about their religion I'm sure there would be outrage.

I've actually had a wonderful Atheist friend tell me to forget my beliefs and I'd be happier. It didn't make me outraged, because he was polite and funny and said so in a way that was not insulting my beliefs or me or anybody else. I understood his point. The point was basically I am not allowed by my belief to go out to clubs and party... I had told him that even if I did that, i would feel so guilty and sad because I would feel like I had displeased God. I don't like displeasing God. So, when he said to just forget about all that, he was actually trying to help me to be "free to party without guilt" That doesn't work with me, but I understood his point. He has no guilt partying, and one of those reasons is because he does not believe in God and therefore has no desire to please a being he doesn't believe in, which is perfectly understandable. That does not outrage me at all.

So is it fair for people to randomly approach any stranger and try to push religion onto them?

I guess it's just as fair as a person to randomly approach a stranger and ask them to vote for whoever... I personally don't randomly approach strangers and tell them about Jesus. One reason I like to write on forums though is because when people ask questions about what I believe or have false assumptions as to what Christians believe, I do like to explain what i believe and why. Even though a few times I do this outside the religious section, I do tend to say in the religious section, which is hopefully understood to be a place where people can discuss religious issues. Anyone coming in this section would hopefully understand that.

I'm not complaining and would never treat anyone different due to there religious beliefs.. but thought it could be a good discussion.

Discuss.

It is a good discussion topic. Hopefully you will not be insulted or mocked by anyone.

Peace and God bless you

[TheHansa]

(Original post by Soph(:)
It annoys me, I have nothing against religion I'm even techincally Catholic myself but I think if people want to be religious they don't need to inflict it upon anyone else. Like a couple of weeks ago at 7 o'clock Jehovah's Witnesses came knocking on my door preaching I wasn't particularly pleased especially at that time

What's technically Catholic?