Results are out! Find what you need...fast. Get quick advice or join the chat
Hey there! Sign in to have your say on this topicNew here? Join for free to post

B446 - Abolition Of Squatters Rights Bill 2012

This thread is sponsored by:
Announcements Posted on
    • 12 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    No for pretty much the same reasons my other Liber-friend DRE posted. This bill as it stands is merely an invitation for more prosecutions and more people in prison. I think the offenses need to be tiered. If you leave peacefully, then the police nor the owner don't need to necessarily prosecute. If you repeatedly offend, you are more likely to be prosecuted. If you require force to leave, you will be prosecuted.
    • 21 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    Does this include gypsies? If so, then aye.
    • 17 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MacCuishy)
    Does this include gypsies? If so, then aye.
    Actually, that raises another issue. When Dale farm was evicted, the UN said that that the eviction was immature and unwise, arguing that members should provide culturally appropriate accommodation. Now, in doing this without paying any attention to alternatives for travellers/gypsies, the government should expect similar harsh criticism from members of the EU court of human rights, United Nations, and Amnesty International. So, is it right to say that the government cares not for the opinion of human rights organisations?

    As a follow up question, what is the governments opinion on humanitarian intervention? I think you'll see where i'm going with this point...

    EDIT: Oh, and to MacCuishy, why do you feel the need to target particular races in your voting? Read your post, and please explain to me how it isn't racist.
    • 14 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by davidmarsh01)
    Lol. You say the current system is a "dark-age approach" then you propose taking homeless people's clothes away if they commit a crime, lol.
    I didn't really propose it, seeing as I said it was entirely flawed.

    And also, I said that my personal approach is 'dark-age', not the current system. Read the post properly next time.
    • 21 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by paperclip)
    Actually, that raises another issue. When Dale farm was evicted, the UN said that that the eviction was immature and unwise, arguing that members should provide culturally appropriate accommodation. Now, in doing this without paying any attention to alternatives for travellers/gypsies, the government should expect similar harsh criticism from members of the EU court of human rights, United Nations, and Amnesty International. So, is it right to say that the government cares not for the opinion of human rights organisations?

    As a follow up question, what is the governments opinion on humanitarian intervention? I think you'll see where i'm going with this point...

    EDIT: Oh, and to MacCuishy, why do you feel the need to target particular races in your voting? Read your post, and please explain to me how it isn't racist.
    I have been a victim of gypsies and let me tell you this. It is not their culture, they illegally occupy land and the PcBrigade call it culture. It is a culture of stealing, violence and s**ting where you like. They show no respect for anybody and don't pay any taxes.

    It can't carry on. I don't care what the UN say, they are illegally occupying land which is not theirs so they are committing an offence.

    Not to mention the amount of metal they steal - which I have also been directly affected by.

    I am not racist-that is a stupid assumption to make.
    • 17 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MacCuishy)
    I have been a victim of gypsies and let me tell you this. It is not their culture, they illegally occupy land and the PcBrigade call it culture. It is a culture of stealing, violence and s**ting where you like. They show no respect for anybody and don't pay any taxes.

    It can't carry on. I don't care what the UN say, they are illegally occupying land which is not theirs so they are committing an offence.

    Not to mention the amount of metal they steal - which I have also been directly affected by.

    I am not racist-that is a stupid assumption to make.
    You do seem to be tarnishing a whole population with your personal experiences of gypsy culture. You constantly use 'they' as if it is a trait inherent within gypsy culture, which is untrue, gypsy's are simply travellers. I've had bad experiences with all races of people, including whites, does that make every white person a tit? Of course not.

    Your problem seemed to be gypsy's in particular, not about illegal occupiers in general; your earlier post explicitly stated this. This is why i interpreted it as racist, and with all the stereotyping done in this reply, i find it hard to swallow your last statement.

    Stealing is already against the law, as is violence and public defecation so why aren't these people tried and sentenced under the pre existing legislation, as opposed to having laws created specifically to attack them?
    • 21 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by paperclip)
    You do seem to be tarnishing a whole population with your personal experiences of gypsy culture. You constantly use 'they' as if it is a trait inherent within gypsy culture, which is untrue, gypsy's are simply travellers. I've had bad experiences with all races of people, including whites, does that make every white person a tit? Of course not.

    Your problem seemed to be gypsy's in particular, not about illegal occupiers in general; your earlier post explicitly stated this. This is why i interpreted it as racist, and with all the stereotyping done in this reply, i find it hard to swallow your last statement.

    Stealing is already against the law, as is violence and public defecation so why aren't these people tried and sentenced under the pre existing legislation, as opposed to having laws created specifically to attack them?
    I don't know anybody who has had a problem with gypsys occupying their land and not been either confronted, scammed or stolen from. This is not the case with any other race - as they are not all cardboard cutouts. Something needs to be done - especially for the children who grow up without an education and many of them cannot write.

    I would not have a problem if gypsies travelled, paid to stay at authroised caravan parks or whatever and worked an honest living - but this is not the case

    Whether this be legislation, I don't know, but something needs to be done to protect landowners and enforce the law properly, instead of worrying about offending them.
    • 33 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    I don't think squatting should be illegal, especially in buildings that have been abandoned for years, if this is carried out without damaging another's property. However, it must be enshrined into law that squatters pay for any damage or vandalism they cause.
    • 12 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tufc)
    I didn't really propose it, seeing as I said it was entirely flawed.

    And also, I said that my personal approach is 'dark-age', not the current system. Read the post properly next time.
    Oops, sorry about that. It's still a terrible idea though, even if it wasn't meant in all seriousness (and if it was, :lolwut:).

    Here's an idea - instead of feeling the need to punish homeless squatters why don't you help them get somewhere to live in order to avoid them having to squat?
    • 14 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by davidmarsh01)
    Oops, sorry about that. It's still a terrible idea though, even if it wasn't meant in all seriousness (and if it was, :lolwut:).

    Here's an idea - instead of feeling the need to punish homeless squatters why don't you help them get somewhere to live in order to avoid them having to squat?

    I did consider the viability of offering squatters hostel places; but these are limited, so in effect, you'd be rewarding squatters for squatting.

    From what I've read, I understand that many squatters are illegal immigrants - perhaps if caught squatting, they would face immediate deportation. The only problem with that is that many illegal immigrants deliberately lose their passport to make it much harder to deport them.

    The issue here is that prison is too soft to be a proper punishment. Prison should be a cold, dark, lonely place with little to no entertainment, instead of a Travelodge with a fence round it.
    • 8 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    As I have said before, I agree with this bill.

    (Original post by MacCuishy)
    Does this include gypsies? If so, then aye.
    Did they shrink someone you knew?
    • 17 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MacCuishy)
    I don't know anybody who has had a problem with gypsys occupying their land and not been either confronted, scammed or stolen from. This is not the case with any other race - as they are not all cardboard cutouts. Something needs to be done - especially for the children who grow up without an education and many of them cannot write.

    I would not have a problem if gypsies travelled, paid to stay at authroised caravan parks or whatever and worked an honest living - but this is not the case

    Whether this be legislation, I don't know, but something needs to be done to protect landowners and enforce the law properly, instead of worrying about offending them.
    How many gypsys do you know? Compared to people of other races? I don't mind you saying you've had some bad experiences with gypsy's, but it seems incredibly rude and unnecessarily offensive to paint everyone in the same light. Now, i've never met a gypsy (although i have met many new age travellers) but to tarnish someone's ethnic origin and political/spiritual beliefs just because they're easily identifiable characteristics is incredibly insensitive.

    Regarding your second paragraph, once again, i don't see why you need to bring race into it. You don't have a problem with gypsy's themselves, you have a problem with what you mentioned - stealing, squatting, etc. Why not just say that? Presumably a gypsy that steals is no worse than a black person that steals? A gay person that steals? etc. Your original post directed attention away from the (potential) criminal activities mentioned in the bill (namely, squatting) and diverted attention towards race - surely, it was clear to you what the bill would be targeting (and that it would be targeting what you're against, squatting, not gypsys), so i fail to understand why your vote depended on it only if it was targeted at a particular group. Surely, if you think illegally living on land is bad, it is true regardless of whether they are gypsy's or not?

    And now returning to something you said earlier in the post:
    Something needs to be done - especially for the children who grow up without an education and many of them cannot write.
    Now i'm actually not sure of my opinion here, but i will put the point of cultural relativism. Some people choose to live outside the system, and simply hold different values to you and i. Some people would rather we live in small farming communities based on mutual co-operation and forcing them to take part in a system that they find abhorrent is something that is beyond us. I've met the children of some travellers, and they did seem to be alright in terms of intelligence, although i'm sure this doesn't represent every traveller just as not everyone within our system is perfect. I'm actually not sure what can be done in this instance, because to a large degree we do just have to expect parents to do what is right for their children.
    • 12 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tufc)
    I did consider the viability of offering squatters hostel places; but these are limited, so in effect, you'd be rewarding squatters for squatting.

    From what I've read, I understand that many squatters are illegal immigrants - perhaps if caught squatting, they would face immediate deportation. The only problem with that is that many illegal immigrants deliberately lose their passport to make it much harder to deport them.

    The issue here is that prison is too soft to be a proper punishment. Prison should be a cold, dark, lonely place with little to no entertainment, instead of a Travelodge with a fence round it.
    You can't look at everything with such a black and white view; "they've done something wrong, they must be punished". It is much better to look at why somebody has committed a crime and resolve the issue that way. If you can solve the reason why people are committing crimes then crime rates will go down - people will simply not have a reason to commit crimes.

    Why should prison be like that? Because you say so?

    Why don't we look at something that actually works. Norway's open prison Bastoey has the lowest re-offending rates in Europe, and is one of (if not the) cheapest prisons to run in Europe. That's pretty good going if you ask me. Is this prison a barbaric, lonely, desolate place? No, it's a place that gives people their pride and dignity back, and makes them feel that they can live life normally again after committing their crime.

    More info: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/e...ay-open-prison

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mosl...-catch-UK.html
    • 21 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by paperclip)
    How many gypsys do you know? Compared to people of other races? I don't mind you saying you've had some bad experiences with gypsy's, but it seems incredibly rude and unnecessarily offensive to paint everyone in the same light. Now, i've never met a gypsy (although i have met many new age travellers) but to tarnish someone's ethnic origin and political/spiritual beliefs just because they're easily identifiable characteristics is incredibly insensitive.

    Regarding your second paragraph, once again, i don't see why you need to bring race into it. You don't have a problem with gypsy's themselves, you have a problem with what you mentioned - stealing, squatting, etc. Why not just say that? Presumably a gypsy that steals is no worse than a black person that steals? A gay person that steals? etc. Your original post directed attention away from the (potential) criminal activities mentioned in the bill (namely, squatting) and diverted attention towards race - surely, it was clear to you what the bill would be targeting (and that it would be targeting what you're against, squatting, not gypsys), so i fail to understand why your vote depended on it only if it was targeted at a particular group. Surely, if you think illegally living on land is bad, it is true regardless of whether they are gypsy's or not?

    And now returning to something you said earlier in the post:


    Now i'm actually not sure of my opinion here, but i will put the point of cultural relativism. Some people choose to live outside the system, and simply hold different values to you and i. Some people would rather we live in small farming communities based on mutual co-operation and forcing them to take part in a system that they find abhorrent is something that is beyond us. I've met the children of some travellers, and they did seem to be alright in terms of intelligence, although i'm sure this doesn't represent every traveller just as not everyone within our system is perfect. I'm actually not sure what can be done in this instance, because to a large degree we do just have to expect parents to do what is right for their children.
    Negging me because my opinion is wrong...

    And yes, I don't need to bring race into it. Sorry it was a bit of an outburst seeming as I'm having recent problems with gypsy's. However, I still do believe the children have a right to an education and that the law does need to be enforced properly regarding theft and illegal occupation of land.
    • 17 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MacCuishy)
    Negging me because my opinion is wrong...

    And yes, I don't need to bring race into it. Sorry it was a bit of an outburst seeming as I'm having recent problems with gypsy's. However, I still do believe the children have a right to an education and that the law does need to be enforced properly regarding theft and illegal occupation of land.
    I didn't neg you i don't think (although my short term memory's not the best...)
    • 2 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    "Violation of this Act should be punishable by a fine not exceeding £1,000 and/or imprisonment not exceeding 6 months."

    Several weeks ago I asked the government if they had any plans to deal with the poorest and most vulnerable people in our society, the ones who have nothing and nowhere to go. When they replied yes, I had been expecting the building of new homes. Or tax cuts on new homes. Or plans to help squatters find a home.

    What I certainly wasn't expecting at the time is a Bill to fine and imprison the poorest in society. Yet that is essentially what we have before us today.


    Edit: QFA for the prime minister.
    (Original post by Rakas21)
    QFA
    • 0 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    What does this do to adverse possession?
    • 19 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    squatters are a disease that pray on hard working individuals and while they may be homeless at times, they deserve no more special treatment for it because that is usually of their own doing.
    we have very generous housing systems here, generous benefits systems (too generous to be honest) and there is no real reason a person should be breaking into another persons property who have worked hard to own.

    frankly if I came home to squatters I wouldn't be calling the police but an ambulance for some unfortunate people as they seem to have been introduced to my bat.

    its because of too liberal attitudes like this that we have a generation of families that live on benefits, that some people have never worked a day in their lives, that its always someone else's fault for peoples lives being terrible.

    what on earth happened to personal responsibility? where we are responsible for ourselves, where we rely on hard work to improve our life rather than banking on the state or other hardworking people to subsidiese our own lives.
    • 2 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Mephestic)
    they deserve no more special treatment for it because that is usually of their own doing.
    I somehow doubt the validity of that argument. True, some squatters are drunks or lazy. But then again, so are many rich people. You cannot generalise

    (Original post by Mephestic)
    we have very generous housing systems here, generous benefits systems (too generous to be honest)
    Generous? We have 1.5 million people on council housing waiting lists, along with thousands of homeless people. That dosen't seem like a system which is working
    • 14 followers
    Offline

    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by davidmarsh01)
    You can't look at everything with such a black and white view; "they've done something wrong, they must be punished". It is much better to look at why somebody has committed a crime and resolve the issue that way. If you can solve the reason why people are committing crimes then crime rates will go down - people will simply not have a reason to commit crimes.

    Why should prison be like that? Because you say so?

    Why don't we look at something that actually works. Norway's open prison Bastoey has the lowest re-offending rates in Europe, and is one of (if not the) cheapest prisons to run in Europe. That's pretty good going if you ask me. Is this prison a barbaric, lonely, desolate place? No, it's a place that gives people their pride and dignity back, and makes them feel that they can live life normally again after committing their crime.

    More info: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/e...ay-open-prison

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mosl...-catch-UK.html
    My idea is somewhat similar to that: make criminals endure the first half of their sentence in a repressive, nasty prison. Then the second half in a prison more like Bastoey. Show them the different paths open to them: either incarceration in an unfriendly environment; or a cleaner, more free style of living.

    Like the article says, those at Bastoey have mostly been in more traditional prisons first.
Updated: May 22, 2012
New on TSR

The future of apprenticeships

Join the discussion in the apprenticeships hub!

Article updates
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.