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Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

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    (Original post by .eXe)
    Ah borderline ad hominem.

    You argument makes no sense, I have shown you that quite clearly and now you have resorted to assuming that I masturbate. I am a Christian and I assure you that I do not I was merely arguing WHY masturbation would be wrong, under the original premise (which I do not agree with) that every sin has a victim, and masturbation quite obviously does not and yet is a sin.

    If you cannot argue well, that's okay, no big deal. I've enjoyed reading your nonsense arguments on this thread
    There are two types of men in the world.

    Men who admit they masturbate and those that lie about it.
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    (Original post by Ice Constricter)
    There are two types of men in the world.

    Men who admit they masturbate and those that lie about it.
    an admirable effort, but unfounded nonetheless.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    an admirable effort, but unfounded nonetheless.
    No I believe you, I really do.
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    (Original post by Ice Constricter)
    No I believe, I really do.
    that's great, although I couldn't really care less
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    that's great, although I couldn't really care less
    But why is masturbating a sin? What harm does it cause?
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    (Original post by Ice Constricter)
    But why is masturbating a sin? What harm does it cause?
    To your first question: masturbation is a sin because it is a representation of sexual immorality, perversity and lust. There are many references in the Bible (OT and NT) where sexual immorality is forbidden. Additionally, Jesus himself said that in Matthew 5:28.

    To your second question: this is the fundamental issue I have with this entire thread. I am not sure why you are even asking me this, because your question is the exact same question I asked the OP. He said that for sin there has to be a victim (someone who was harmed). I argued that and gave examples of sins which do not have harm. Sin does not require someone or something to be harmed. Sure, many sins result from harming yourself or others, however harm is not a requirement for sin. This is a point I've been trying to get the OP to understand but he has mysteriously disappeared. Perhaps you should ask him this very question because his entire thread is flawed based on that incorrect premise.
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    (Original post by Addzter)
    Most women in porn probably had their vaginas molested by male family members when they were young, though.
    Do you speak from experience?
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    (Original post by Rant)
    Do you speak from experience?
    No, I don't have a vagina and I've never been in porn.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    ...
    And the OP goes silent.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    To your first question: masturbation is a sin because it is a representation of sexual immorality, perversity and lust. There are many references in the Bible (OT and NT) where sexual immorality is forbidden. Additionally, Jesus himself said that in Matthew 5:28.

    To your second question: this is the fundamental issue I have with this entire thread. I am not sure why you are even asking me this, because your question is the exact same question I asked the OP. He said that for sin there has to be a victim (someone who was harmed). I argued that and gave examples of sins which do not have harm. Sin does not require someone or something to be harmed. Sure, many sins result from harming yourself or others, however harm is not a requirement for sin. This is a point I've been trying to get the OP to understand but he has mysteriously disappeared. Perhaps you should ask him this very question because his entire thread is flawed based on that incorrect premise.
    You

    Can't

    Be

    Serious


    You believe in a God that created men with the (healthy) desire--or should I say the necessity-- to relieve themselves of their seminal liquid and then tell them they shouldn't do it. Quite sadistic indeed. To me it's just like telling women they can't have their periods.
    Worse, you believe in a God who spews out rules with no meaning behind them, who forbids for no reason. Masturbation is harmless? So what! Don't do it, it's immoral. And don't dare to ask why!

    My friend, I certainly will pray for you.
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    (Original post by Phaethon)
    You

    Can't

    Be

    Serious

    You believe in a God that created men with the (healthy) desire--or should I say the necessity-- to relieve themselves of their seminal liquid and then tell them they shouldn't do it. Quite sadistic indeed. To me it's just like telling women they can't have their periods.
    Worse, you believe in a God who spews out rules with no meaning behind them, who forbids for no reason. Masturbation is harmless? So what! Don't do it, it's immoral. And don't dare to ask why!

    My friend, I certainly will pray for you.
    No don't pray for me, thanks for the offer though.

    Secondly, it seems you enjoy being trashed on the forum. So here goes:

    God did create man with sexual appetite and desires and the ability for arousal, etc. However, God also created the institution of marriage in order to accommodate those desires. Your ridiculous argument would be valid had God created us to be sexual beings, but then banned sex altogether.

    However, sex is not banned.


    At what point did God ban us from "releasing our seminal fluid?"


    So there goes your entire argument.

    Not even a good effort, just a giant appeal to emotion filled gibberish nonsense. Next time, please post something of a little substance.
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    Its an abhorrant doctrine.

    It relieves the burden of responsibility for the "sinners." If they've raped someone, all a Christian has to do is seek Gods forgiveness.

    This guy says it better than I can;

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    (Original post by Alpharius)
    Its an abhorrant doctrine.

    It relieves the burden of responsibility for the "sinners." If they've raped someone, all a Christian has to do is seek Gods forgiveness.

    This guy says it better than I can;

    But WHY according to your standards MUST there be a burden of responsibility on the sinner? WHY can God NOT be the judge of that? WHY must the sinner receive punishment that is acceptable to you? WHY can God not decide how and when the sinner must be dealt with?

    You claim this is an abhorrent doctrine and you're just plain wrong. If anything, it is an amazing doctrine because no matter how horrid the sin, God ALWAYS forgives. How the hell can you call something like that abhorrent?

    Additionally, what exactly makes you think that the victim will not be dealt with as they deserve to be dealt with by God? Do you think God will just forgive the sinner and tell the victim to go screw off? What makes you think God is unjust? God by definition is just and thus, each individual will be judged adequately by the moral standards that God has laid out.

    It seems there is literally NOTHING you know about religious doctrine and you just use giant appeals to emotions (Like Hitchens, it's no wonder you've quoted him here), in order to get your ridiculous point across.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    No don't pray for me, thanks for the offer though.

    Secondly, it seems you enjoy being trashed on the forum. So here goes:

    God did create man with sexual appetite and desires and the ability for arousal, etc. However, God also created the institution of marriage in order to accommodate those desires. Your ridiculous argument would be valid had God created us to be sexual beings, but then banned sex altogether.

    However, sex is not banned.


    At what point did God ban us from "releasing our seminal fluid?"


    So there goes your entire argument.

    Not even a good effort, just a giant appeal to emotion filled gibberish nonsense. Next time, please post something of a little substance.

    An easy to understand and perfectly well constructed reasoning, I must say. Only you forget those that are too young to marry :P
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    (Original post by Phaethon)
    An easy to understand and perfectly well constructed reasoning, I must say. Only you forget those that are too young to marry :P
    No I don't forget that at all. Many young adults/teens engage in masturbation and I am not saying that they are all automatically hell bound. However, if they wish to subscribe to religious doctrine, then it is imperative that they follow the doctrine itself.

    For example, let's say you are a 17 year old individual who likes to masturbate. You may be a Christian by birth but are not a real Christian, because that requires a personal acceptance of Jesus in your life and thus you must be "born again". In doing so, you acknowledge that you are a sinner, that you have committed sins in the past and will certainly commit sins in the future. However, those sins will be washed away because you will have a personal saviour Jesus, to whom you can ask of forgiveness from sin and assistance in not committing them in the future.

    If you choose not to do the above, that's entirely your decision and you are free to continue masturbating and you don't have to call yourself a Christian, nor have to follow Christian doctrine. However, if you WANT to be a Christian, and WANT to submit to God's law, then you must give up on your own desires, and must then submit to God's plan for your life.

    At this point, it becomes important that you follow the rules God has outlined for us. If God asked that you may only sleep with your wife, then you must obey that rule. If God asked that you not engage in sexual immorality, then you must obey that rule. Sure, you may sin and you may give in to temptation, but there will always be a personal saviour to whom you can ask for forgiveness and strength.

    Alternatively, you can fore-go all that and just live as a non-Christian and do as you desire. There is no pressure for you to become a Christian.

    Therefore, your argument about those under 18 is irrelevant. Whether they are under 18 or over 18 doesn't matter...if they are born again Christians then they will know the importance of following God's commandments. If they are not, then it doesn't really matter what age they are...they are free to do as they wish.

    What it all comes down to is personal choice. Are you content doing whatever you want, whenever you want, for your entire life. Or would you rather submit to something that is greater than you, can assist you in life, can define you as a person and can absolve your sins, transgressions and weaknesses, and in doing so become your own personal saviour.

    Sorry for the long post.
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    Why even start this post? Let people believe in God if they want to, it's none of your business and you shouldn't be trying to offend anyone
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    (Original post by anthonyfl)
    Why even start this post? Let people believe in God if they want to, it's none of your business and you shouldn't be trying to offend anyone
    I am willing to bet money that the OP thought this thread was going to get them a bunch of +1 reps for originality, creativity and thinking

    However, to their surprise it has just become a ridicule.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    But WHY according to your standards MUST there be a burden of responsibility on the sinner? WHY can God NOT be the judge of that? WHY must the sinner receive punishment that is acceptable to you? WHY can God not decide how and when the sinner must be dealt with?

    You claim this is an abhorrent doctrine and you're just plain wrong. If anything, it is an amazing doctrine because no matter how horrid the sin, God ALWAYS forgives. How the hell can you call something like that abhorrent?

    Additionally, what exactly makes you think that the victim will not be dealt with as they deserve to be dealt with by God? Do you think God will just forgive the sinner and tell the victim to go screw off? What makes you think God is unjust? God by definition is just and thus, each individual will be judged adequately by the moral standards that God has laid out.

    It seems there is literally NOTHING you know about religious doctrine and you just use giant appeals to emotions (Like Hitchens, it's no wonder you've quoted him here), in order to get your ridiculous point across.
    Can you hear yourself? I should say, can you see what you've written?

    "Why should a criminal take responsibility for their actions?" I can't actually believe you've said that. Its disgraceful. Why shouldn't they take responsibility for their actions! If they've stolen, they've taken something that was not rightfully theirs. If they've raped, they've mentally scarred someone for life. If they've murdered, that victim cannot come back, they are dead. But, hay-ho, lets just forgive them.

    Amazing doctrine? If it is, morality and ethics go out of the window. An individuals morality is completely underpinned by responsibility. If Christianity is true (luckily, there's not a shred of evidence in its favour), then all they have to do is apologise to God, and all is forgiven. Thats shameful and immoral.

    As for "Do you think God will just forgive the sinner and tell the victim to go screw off?" That is the Christian doctrine. They either are not forgiven and cast into Hell forever (the goats), or are forgiven and go to Heaven (the sheep). This isn't Hinduism, where you are punished for a certain amount time for your mis-deeds and are then brought into their version of heaven. Stop ****ing picking and choosing, its your faith, stick to it.

    As for knowing nothing about religious doctrine, on the contrary, I no longer believe in any religion because I scrutinised religious doctrine, and found it lacking. I was a firm believer for most of my life. Went to a faith school, where religious studies was compulsory throughout. Baptised and confirmed in the RCC, until I started really looking into my faith.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    I am willing to bet money that the OP thought this thread was going to get them a bunch of +1 reps for originality, creativity and thinking

    However, to their surprise it has just become a ridicule.
    Yes, trying to insult and offend people - very nice.

    I sent you a mail about studying medicine btw
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    (Original post by anthonyfl)
    Yes, trying to insult and offend people - very nice.

    I sent you a mail about studying medicine btw
    received and replied

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