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Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

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    (Original post by Alpharius)
    ~
    Yes I can hear myself very well thank you. My question was merely...who are YOU to tell God how to do things?

    Just answer that simple question. We can go on and on until our fingers fall off but just tell me who the hell you think you are to make judgements on God's ability to judge people for their actions.

    Provide me a decent answer to this and I will concede. I just want to understand how high your ego can go.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    Yes I can hear myself very well thank you. My question was merely...who are YOU to tell God how to do things?

    Just answer that simple question. We can go on and on until our fingers fall off but just tell me who the hell you think you are to make judgements on God's ability to judge people for their actions.

    Provide me a decent answer to this and I will concede. I just want to understand how high your ego can go.
    Well, I could start with the fact that there is actual evidence that I exist.

    EDIT: As for ego, I'm not the one claiming something with no evidence. Better yet, I'm not claiming that I know this God actually gives a damn about anything we do. My ego certainly isn't that great.
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    (Original post by Greatest I am)
    Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

    Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.

    The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.

    If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.

    Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.

    Jesus would not condone such a thing.

    Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.

    To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.

    This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.

    In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_f...eature=related

    Regards
    DL
    So when Pope John Paul II forgave the man who tried to kill him, this was unjust?
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    (Original post by Alpharius)
    Well, I could start with the fact that there is actual evidence that I exist.
    There is plenty of evidence that God exists. Just not enough for you it seems, but it is certainly enough for us theists.

    The great and awesome Hitchens' only argument against not believing in God was summed up by this statement: "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

    Apparently, evidence of God healing the ill, performing miracles witnessed by thousands (and documented historically), resurrecting from the grave (again documented historically), etc are not extraordinary enough.

    The willfully blind will never see.
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    Is this going to be another thread of Christians vs Atheists?
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    ^seems like it
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    There is plenty of evidence that God exists. Just not enough for you it seems, but it is certainly enough for us theists.

    The great and awesome Hitchens' only argument against not believing in God was summed up by this statement: "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

    Apparently, evidence of God healing the ill, performing miracles witnessed by thousands (and documented historically), resurrecting from the grave (again documented historically), etc are not extraordinary enough.

    The willfully blind will never see.
    This response does not surprise me.

    Here's my response; Consider all of this "evidence" for Gods existance. Could this evidence work without the assumption of God?

    Occams Razor can deal with that quite quickly.

    EDIT: I'll leave this thread now, this isn't the "Does God Exist?" thread, and I'd rather not stray any further off topic.
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    (Original post by Alpharius)
    This response does not surprise me.

    Here's my response; Consider all of this "evidence" for Gods existance. Could this evidence work without the assumption of God?

    Occams Razor can deal with that quite quickly.

    EDIT: I'll leave this thread now, this isn't the "Does God Exist?" thread, and I'd rather not stray any further off topic.
    An expected response.

    I think you will find that none of the "evidence" would even exist in the absence or non-assumption of God. Occam's Razor does not even apply because said evidence would not exist if God does not.

    Edit: Okay. However, the topic of this thread is nonsense (and not worth discussion in the first place) so feel free to stick around.
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    The real victims are the frogs that jesus's father decided to massacre when he sent the plagues to Egypt
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    (Original post by Greatest I am)
    Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

    Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.

    The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.

    If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.

    Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.

    Jesus would not condone such a thing.

    Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.

    To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.

    This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.

    In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_f...eature=related

    Regards
    DL
    Have you read 'The Brothers Karamazov'? Your argument sounds familiar.
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    I think this is where Christianity fundamentally fails the hardest. I could murder, torture and rape a million people then repent on my deathbed, have my sins absolved and go to heaven. Ridiculous.
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    (Original post by Einheri)
    I think this is where Christianity fundamentally fails the hardest. I could murder, torture and rape a million people then repent on my deathbed, have my sins absolved and go to heaven. Ridiculous.
    Some people might argue that this is one of its greatest strengths. The emphasis that no-one is beyond redemption.
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    I'd like to raise a question. How would Jesus not forgiving sinners achieve justice for the victim?
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    (Original post by zuqqer)
    Except you're not being done up the ass.
    What about the bloke? Is he not a victim too?
    Oh not in your eyes, because women are ****ing weak and need to be saved.
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    Op, you're right, it is unjust, it is the victim that should forgive you and that's how it works in Islam, unless the sin is between you and God.

    If it involves other people, then you should apologise to those people and ask for forgiveness from them.
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    (Original post by TheGrinningSkull)
    Op, you're right, it is unjust, it is the victim that should forgive you and that's how it works in Islam, unless the sin is between you and God.

    If it involves other people, then you should apologise to those people and ask for forgiveness from them.
    What if the victim is dead and had no friends or relatives. How does islam handle that? Dont bother posting back if youre just going say "god judges" because you just said that he victim has to do it. If youre going to try to discredit christianity i really strongly advise you dont use islam to do it lol, its an uphill battle for you.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    What if the victim is dead and had no friends or relatives. How does islam handle that? Dont bother posting back if youre just going say "god judges" because you just said that he victim has to do it. If youre going to try to discredit christianity i really strongly advise you dont use islam to do it lol, its an uphill battle for you.
    lol, you seem in the mood.

    I'm not sure about the nitty gritty of it, I mean everybody will be getting a book of their deeds come judgement day when everyone's dead and risen so you could ask then as well, still up to them if they want to forgive you. (And even then, I don't know how forgiving works in terms of deeds etc ).

    I'm not trying to discredit Christianity much, although it does seem unfair on the victim if what the OP claims truly is the case.

    Don't see why it'd be an uphill battle
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    (Original post by TheGrinningSkull)
    lol, you seem in the mood.

    I'm not sure about the nitty gritty of it, I mean everybody will be getting a book of their deeds come judgement day when everyone's dead and risen so you could ask then as well, still up to them if they want to forgive you. (And even then, I don't know how forgiving works in terms of deeds etc ).

    I'm not trying to discredit Christianity much, although it does seem unfair on the victim if what the OP claims truly is the case.

    Don't see why it'd be an uphill battle
    By uphill battle I meant that a lot of rules in Islam regarding a variety of issues are very strict, and very harsh. On another thread, a certain muslim poster is defending why it is okay to cut a thief's hands off. In yet another thread many weeks back, the same poster was defending the killing of apostates. See what I mean by uphill battle?

    And yes, I agree that one day everyone will get judged. However, the judgement will not be mine or yours to give out, even if we are the victims. Judgement belongs to God alone, no matter who the sinner is and no matter who the victim.

    We as humans can certainly pass off opinion or react in anger, frustration, etc. However, an emotional response does not give us the right to judge the sinner. It is my belief that a human being cannot sin against another human being because we are all sinners. Sin can ONLY be against God, because God is the one who created the moral standard by which we live.

    So I do not agree with your argument that the victim must forgive. It's not a sin if God isn't the one who must forgive it.

    And lol the OP is just having a laugh, considering he has yet to post since the OP :rolleyes:
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    This thread has gone from; Jesus forgiving people, to porn, to God not existing, to "my religion is better than yours"...

    What next, apostacy in Isla...Oh wait, yep, already has...
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    (Original post by Alpharius)
    This thread has gone from; Jesus forgiving people, to porn, to God not existing, to "my religion is better than yours"...

    What next, apostacy in Isla...Oh wait, yep, already has...
    Lol :lol:

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