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Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

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    (Original post by .eXe)
    By uphill battle I meant that a lot of rules in Islam regarding a variety of issues are very strict, and very harsh. On another thread, a certain muslim poster is defending why it is okay to cut a thief's hands off. In yet another thread many weeks back, the same poster was defending the killing of apostates. See what I mean by uphill battle?

    And yes, I agree that one day everyone will get judged. However, the judgement will not be mine or yours to give out, even if we are the victims. Judgement belongs to God alone, no matter who the sinner is and no matter who the victim.

    We as humans can certainly pass off opinion or react in anger, frustration, etc. However, an emotional response does not give us the right to judge the sinner. It is my belief that a human being cannot sin against another human being because we are all sinners. Sin can ONLY be against God, because God is the one who created the moral standard by which we live.

    So I do not agree with your argument that the victim must forgive. It's not a sin if God isn't the one who must forgive it.

    And lol the OP is just having a laugh, considering he has yet to post since the OP :rolleyes:
    Judgement is to God, yes, but the sin was done to a person, and as God is all fair, it is only fair that God gives the victim his right as the sin was acted on the victim.

    If a sin is just between you and God then that would depend on repentance etc.

    Also, a bit of an ad hominem, I don't want to change topics right now, I'm concerned with this.

    The idea I get from "modern" Christianity (from you as well), is that it is alright to sin, because in the end, you'll be "forgiven" (in your views) anyway.

    So what makes you any different? It's alright to keep sinning in your view?
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    (Original post by TheGrinningSkull)
    Judgement is to God, yes, but the sin was done to a person, and as God is all fair, it is only fair that God gives the victim his right as the sin was acted on the victim.

    If a sin is just between you and God then that would depend on repentance etc.

    Also, a bit of an ad hominem, I don't want to change topics right now, I'm concerned with this.

    The idea I get from "modern" Christianity (from you as well), is that it is alright to sin, because in the end, you'll be "forgiven" (in your views) anyway.

    So what makes you any different? It's alright to keep sinning in your view?
    Well if that's the idea you are getting about Christianity then I apologize, it's the wrong idea.

    In simple terms: the only reason to be a Christian is if you recognize that you are a sinner. If you do not see yourself as a sinner, and if you believe that you are a good person who has not sinned and does not require any forgiveness from God, then Christianity is not for you.

    As a Christian, I go to God as a sinner. The entire basis of Christianity is to accept Jesus as a personal saviour, who can redeem me from my sin. I go to him with the knowledge that I myself am incapable of redeeming myself from sin and on my own I am unable to receive forgiveness from God.

    Note: This does not mean that I will magically just stop sinning. Rather it means that if I ever sin or give in to temptation, I will have the opportunity to ask forgiveness, and through Jesus as my personal saviour, I can receive forgiveness from God. This also does not mean that I can sin all I want, and just think to myself...eh, I'll just repent at the end. If you are a theist, then you already know that God knows what is inside our hearts. If we are trying to cheat God, then there is really no point....he knows our deep intentions. So that statement you made (bolded quote) is pretty pointless. We aren't going to be forgiven "anyway"...asking for forgiveness is an active part of a Christian's life because we sin everyday. Not because we enjoy sinning or because we are somehow trying to intentionally break the rules...it's just part of being human.

    The Christian belief is that all have sinned and thus fall short of the glory of God. We are all sinners, each and every one. And thus, we will always always always sin. The only difference between a normal sinner and a Christian is that the latter has a personal saviour Jesus Christ, who is able to forgive us of sin (because he paid the price for it through death and resurrection).

    Again, if I have given you the wrong idea of Christianity I'm sorry, it was entirely unintentional.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    Well if that's the idea you are getting about Christianity then I apologize, it's the wrong idea.

    In simple terms: the only reason to be a Christian is if you recognize that you are a sinner. If you do not see yourself as a sinner, and if you believe that you are a good person who has not sinned and does not require any forgiveness from God, then Christianity is not for you.

    As a Christian, I go to God as a sinner. The entire basis of Christianity is to accept Jesus as a personal saviour, who can redeem me from my sin. I go to him with the knowledge that I myself am incapable of redeeming myself from sin and on my own I am unable to receive forgiveness from God.

    Note: This does not mean that I will magically just stop sinning. Rather it means that if I ever sin or give in to temptation, I will have the opportunity to ask forgiveness, and through Jesus as my personal saviour, I can receive forgiveness from God. This also does not mean that I can sin all I want, and just think to myself...eh, I'll just repent at the end. If you are a theist, then you already know that God knows what is inside our hearts. If we are trying to cheat God, then there is really no point....he knows our deep intentions. So that statement you made (bolded quote) is pretty pointless. We aren't going to be forgiven "anyway"...asking for forgiveness is an active part of a Christian's life because we sin everyday. Not because we enjoy sinning or because we are somehow trying to intentionally break the rules...it's just part of being human.

    The Christian belief is that all have sinned and thus fall short of the glory of God. We are all sinners, each and every one. And thus, we will always always always sin. The only difference between a normal sinner and a Christian is that the latter has a personal saviour Jesus Christ, who is able to forgive us of sin (because he paid the price for it through death and resurrection).

    Again, if I have given you the wrong idea of Christianity I'm sorry, it was entirely unintentional.
    Thank you for correcting my perception of the wrong idea.

    But why is it that you can't ask for forgiveness directly from God? Isn't this like idle worship?

    Are you saying in this post that you can't be forgiven unless it's through Jesus (asws)?
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    (Original post by Greatest I am)
    Jesus forgiving sin is unjust to Victim.

    Sin, by it’s very nature must have a victim. Without a victim, there is no sin.

    The one sinned against has the first right of forgiveness.

    If Jesus usurps that right then I think it would be unjust.

    Closure is being denied the victim thus victimizing is twofold.

    Jesus would not condone such a thing.

    Secular law now demands a victim assessment report before sentence is given.

    To think that Jesus would ignore this requirement is unthinkable.

    This means that, “Why have you forsaken me? “, is answered by God with; because what you do is immoral. You deny the victim her or his rights. It is also unjust to punish the innocent instead of the guilty. In fact, that notion is insane.

    In the scenario shown here the victim is ignored thus showing the flaw in the judge’s ruling, if he accepts substitutionary atonement.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqP_f...eature=related

    Regards
    DL
    Just because the sinner if the sinner is forgiven doesn't mean they don't escape any consequences.

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