[marcusfox]

(Original post by frankieboy)
I find Conservatives are all too ready to point to finger at the opposing parties as part of their "policy", but without knowing what kind of state the Conservatives would have left the country in, it's hard to tell really. My estimate is they would have done equally as much damage, if not more.

This country is in the way it is because it is being affected by outside economies. Gordon Brown was fighting fires really. I doubt the Tories would have done any better.

I've always wondered how anyone can still be a Labour party supporter after the fiasco of the last government, and now I have the answer.

That's how Labour supporters need to rationalise it to themselves to make them feel OK about supporting a party that presided over a massive failure.

'No matter how badly our lot screwed up the country, I'm sure the other lot would have done worse.'

Inventing fantasies and worst case scenarios far removed from actual reality in their heads, where the nasty party screwed it up, and not the one they are rooting for, so the screw-ups weren't really bad after all.

Also known as denial.

[shepstar1]

I'm a UKIP cardholder and I support the party because they're the ONLY major political force in favour of smaller government, flat tax and giving the people a referendum on the EU.

I absolutely loathe it when people put UKIP into the same category as the BNP - the BNP are bigotted socialists, UKIP quite the contrary, not to mention they're the only party to have a blanket ban on any former BNP members and EDL supporters. While UKIP has certainly had more than its fair share of nutters, I believe Farage has been a godsend in transforming the party into a credible force.

I'm a libertarian and a complete advocate of individualism and self-reliance - people like Milton Friedman, Friedrich Hayek and even Ron Paul, to a degree, have said that government is the root of most evils, regardless of how well-intentioned they may be. While UKIP aren't a true libertarian party (they aren't calling for the abolition of the Welfare State, the NHS etc.), they're the party that mostly corresponds to my own views.

I think it's unwise to suggest that somebody is "pro-Conservative" or "pro-Labour" because the reality is, in the grand scheme of things, both parties have a LOT more in common now than most people believe. Rather than Labour being strictly on the left and Conservative being strictly on the right, as was the case 30/40 years ago, both parties have drifted strongly towards the centre into one big mush.

[exe]

Anyone that holds a dogmatic political ideology is usually an idiot

[marcusfox]

(Original post by frankieboy)
It's not that benefits are too low, it's that employers are little scrooges and wages aren't high enough. This is down to the companies concerned, not so much the Government.

I mean, how are wages like 15 grand and 17 grand gonna get anyone anywhere? Look at the cost of living. While the company directors rake in their little bonuses and perks.

I disagree. Labour supporters like to brag about how Labour introduced the minimum wage. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but it is down to government how they handled this.

Anyway, how come if Labour had taken the time to establish a so called minimum living wage of £11,310 (£5.80 x 37.5 x 52), they decided to come along and tax (at the time of the last Labour Government) a little over five grand's worth of that?

I mean, just who is this living wage meant for and it just might explain why those tax credits are so necessary, in order to give back the taxes that these people by the minimum wage definition, are clearly in no position to afford in the first place.

Only 30% of tax revenues come from income tax, the other 70% comes from indirect taxes, levied regardless of any ability to pay, indeed even those on benefits have to pay those taxes.

Some of the big earners are VAT, fuel duty, corporate tax (yes, we all pay those in the end), fags and alcohol, all paid whether you are Richard Branson or on the dole.

If anything is keeping the poor poor in this country, it's not the private sector, it's the state, and those who work within it, pimping off the least well off, making them poor in the first place and keeping them poor.

We see how Brown's big state was clearly nothing less than a protection racket on the weakest in our society. How socialist was that?

[ANARCHY__]

(Original post by pink pineapple)
Rencently, I've come across a lot of threads on here about how Labour 'destroyed our country'. Yes, they may have not made the country exactly brilliant but then people go on to say how they will only vote Conservative. But in reality, how have the Conservatives actually tried changed our for entirely for the better, except from cutting public services as an assumption that everything in the future will be perfect. Also, I really dislike the stereotype on here of the typical Labour voter e.g under-class, on the dole etc as I don't believe it to be true.

[Tahooper]

What a moronic and incorrect thread title.

It's called The Student Room; it has quite a left-wing bias, which is perfectly fine to me on issues like gay marriage and the death penalty (i.e. support gay marriage, oppose capital punishment), but not so much so on issues like the EU and positive discrimination/affirmative action.

[poyyo]

(Original post by Cheese_Monster)
You also get the idealists who have no personality so give themselves pseudonyms of their political idols i.e. the multiple TSR users with pictures of Margaret Thatcher, Classical liberal etc who don't have any of their own opinions, only manifest what they've read in a textbook and the soundbites from the media i.e. the words 'mess'...'inherited'....'Labour' ...'Wreck economy' blah blah blah.

the fact that the post above this quote had boris johnson as their icon

[Cheese_Monster]

(Original post by poyyo)
the fact that the post above this quote had boris johnson as their icon

Eh?

[The Marshall]

Conservatives are destroying the country!

You people who vote for them will have to pay £9000 to go into Uni.

Labour didn't wreak the country.

Rather people like you made a big mistake in voting them.

Conservatives opposed rights and votes for poor people and women during the 1900s.

Labour is far better as they represnt the real working class, not some bunched up, posh up, looking aggorant bats who have no idea how life is being made difficult in the UK by these dickhead conservatives!

Even if they have faults, The Conservatives don't promise a £100 wage increase, they put tax cuts because our public sector is so juicy with money that they will do anything to take it. If I had been the Prime Minister of the conservative government, I would have used it to defy the debt. And to share among other countries.

For at least 4 YEARS now, the government has done nothing to solve the debt crisis. Only ineffective ways of reforming it reminds me of Russia when her Tsar regluary rejected reforms.

[The Marshall]

(Original post by shepstar1)
I'm a UKIP cardholder and I support the party because they're the ONLY major political force in favour of smaller government, flat tax and giving the people a referendum on the EU.

I absolutely loathe it when people put UKIP into the same category as the BNP - the BNP are bigotted socialists, UKIP quite the contrary, not to mention they're the only party to have a blanket ban on any former BNP members and EDL supporters. While UKIP has certainly had more than its fair share of nutters, I believe Farage has been a godsend in transforming the party into a credible force.

I'm a libertarian and a complete advocate of individualism and self-reliance - people like Milton Friedman, Friedrich Hayek and even Ron Paul, to a degree, have said that government is the root of most evils, regardless of how well-intentioned they may be. While UKIP aren't a true libertarian party (they aren't calling for the abolition of the Welfare State, the NHS etc.), they're the party that mostly corresponds to my own views.

I think it's unwise to suggest that somebody is "pro-Conservative" or "pro-Labour" because the reality is, in the grand scheme of things, both parties have a LOT more in common now than most people believe. Rather than Labour being strictly on the left and Conservative being strictly on the right, as was the case 30/40 years ago, both parties have drifted strongly towards the centre into one big mush.

The BNP are a Nazi party aiming to end multiculturalism and make sure that Asian people have no rights in the UK.

Further more, the UKIP party brags on about IMMIGRATION! OH GOD, THERE'S A HUNDRED IMMIGRANTS, KILL THEM! is the attiuide towards any Immigrant. Let me tell you this, if you froze immigration for 5 years, not only would you lose more jobs, you'd be restricting professionall people coming into the UK, Tons of British tourists would be kicked out of the countries they are visiting and foreign business will refuse to work with British people.. Don't assume they're like homeless people. So many Indians from India who are working in the UK are doctors, that is because India is an educational country, they pride themselves on their education. My uncle is an Indian, and he has 34 doctorates under his belt, his son is earning around £15,000 a month. So the UKIP is really judging immigrants as a vile parasite. An abomniation. No wonder the UK is being allowed to present the 2012 olympics, personally you don't deserve to do it if you have this kind of attuide towards any foreginer. Remember you'll not only be presenting the world, you'll be presenting your own country out there. This IMMIGRATION is to damn hyped. And UKIP claim they are non-racist! Rubbish. They are racist and they will be.

[poyyo]

(Original post by Cheese_Monster)
Eh?

you said that many tsr users have politicians for their icons which the person above your post had and i found it funny

[Subology]

(Original post by marcusfox)
I've always wondered how anyone can still be a Labour party supporter after the fiasco of the last government, and now I have the answer.

That's how Labour supporters need to rationalise it to themselves to make them feel OK about supporting a party that presided over a massive failure.

'No matter how badly our lot screwed up the country, I'm sure the other lot would have done worse.'

Inventing fantasies and worst case scenarios far removed from actual reality in their heads, where the nasty party screwed it up, and not the one they are rooting for, so the screw-ups weren't really bad after all.

Also known as denial.

I'm no Labour supporter, but when did you hear the Conservatives ever mention deficits, debts or decry the amount of public spending? It wasn't on their agenda, until everyone could see what was coming. New Labour where essentially Thatcherite economically anyway, and structurally the economy is the same now as when Brown left it.

[shepstar1]

(Original post by The Marshall)
The BNP are a Nazi party aiming to end multiculturalism and make sure that Asian people have no rights in the UK.

Further more, the UKIP party brags on about IMMIGRATION! OH GOD, THERE'S A HUNDRED IMMIGRANTS, KILL THEM! is the attiuide towards any Immigrant. Let me tell you this, if you froze immigration for 5 years, not only would you lose more jobs, you'd be restricting professionall people coming into the UK, Tons of British tourists would be kicked out of the countries they are visiting and foreign business will refuse to work with British people.. Don't assume they're like homeless people. So many Indians from India who are working in the UK are doctors, that is because India is an educational country, they pride themselves on their education. My uncle is an Indian, and he has 34 doctorates under his belt, his son is earning around £15,000 a month. So the UKIP is really judging immigrants as a vile parasite. An abomniation. No wonder the UK is being allowed to present the 2012 olympics, personally you don't deserve to do it if you have this kind of attuide towards any foreginer. Remember you'll not only be presenting the world, you'll be presenting your own country out there. This IMMIGRATION is to damn hyped. And UKIP claim they are non-racist! Rubbish. They are racist and they will be.

I can tell you that I'm certainly not a racist - I just wish there was an honest, open debate on immigration rather than, like you've demonstrated, labelling people "racist" because they want to tackle it. We're one of the most overcrowded countries on the planet and the 3rd most within the EU, more so than microstates like Luxembourg or Liechtenstein; the two largest EU countries, Germany and France, are miles behind us in terms of population density.

Xenophobia is NOT why I'm against mass immigration, Britain has a generous welfare system where EU immigrants can claim social housing and benefits once they set foot in this country and get a job (http://bit.ly/JubUYF). Even Milton Friedman, arguably one of the greatest economists in the past century said that "You cannot simultaneously have free immigration and a welfare state." What we have now is virtually free immigration for EU/EEA citizens. It's not fair on anybody, they won't have paid the same into the system as a worker that's been here for 10/20 years - an increased population dilutes the existing cash pool, essentially dividing the welfare "pie" into smaller parts for everybody.

The BNP are against immigration out of racism and xenophobia, UKIP aren't outright against immigration, they realise there's an open door policy to the EU/EEA, which immigrants from countries such as India, China and Russia can't use, and want to shut it immediately. If we didn't have much of a welfare system, I'd be completely in support of free immigration - it would provide incredible competition within our economy. Mass immigration is what made the USA the greatest economy in the world back in the early 1900s, all you had to do was sail across, work hard and you received your just desserts - the "American dream".

[anarchism101]

(Original post by shepstar1)
I can tell you that I'm certainly not a racist - I just wish there was an honest, open debate on immigration rather than, like you've demonstrated, labelling people "racist" because they want to tackle it.

It remains a fundamentally racist position however you want to spin it. It rests on the assumption that if you are born in a certain area to certain parents, you have a right to be there, but if not, it's a privilege that you have to ask for. Now, what you certainly can argue and what is a serious debate is whether this racism is just a necessary evil and a problem we can't really get around here or not.

We're one of the most overcrowded countries on the planet

Are we heck: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...wing_capacity)

Also note the UK's population growth rate in comparison to other countries:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...on_growth_rate

[chefdave]

(Original post by anarchism101)
It remains a fundamentally racist position however you want to spin it. It rests on the assumption that if you are born in a certain area to certain parents, you have a right to be there, but if not, it's a privilege that you have to ask for. Now, what you certainly can argue and what is a serious debate is whether this racism is just a necessary evil and a problem we can't really get around here or not.

Great idea, lets surrender our right to a homeland and turn the Anglo-Saxon people into a tribe of wandering nomads because the alternative -statehood- is oppressive racism aimed at ethnic minorities. I'd rather my family were turfed out of their homes and denied the privilege of basic rights than be accused of racism. In fact the world would be a heck of a lot better if all whites committed suicide simultaneously, that would solve the race issue once and for all.

[anarchism101]

(Original post by chefdave)
Great idea, lets surrender our right to a homeland and turn the Anglo-Saxon people into a tribe of wandering nomads because the alternative -statehood- is oppressive racism aimed at ethnic minorities. I'd rather my family were turfed out of their homes and denied the privilege of basic rights than be accused of racism. In fact the world would be a heck of a lot better if all whites committed suicide simultaneously, that would solve the race issue once and for all.

Evidently you didn't read my last sentence.

[chefdave]

(Original post by anarchism101)
Evidently you didn't read my last sentence.

Statehood isn't racist because territoral boundaries also keep out people of the same race.

[anarchism101]

(Original post by chefdave)
Statehood isn't racist because territoral boundaries also keep out people of the same race.

If you think the word racist isn't technically right then feel free to use a different one but the concept is that people are being assigned different rights based on their birth circumstances.

[apatch3]

Unfortunately we have reached a point where many people who feel they have been let down by new labour (and blame new labour for the financial crisis) have put their faith in the conservative party. The very party that supports deregulation, the abolition of the state and control by private interests. They stand for the very deregulated markets that caused the crash.

Yes Labour spent too much, and were too optimistic, essentially they are no longer socialist, but conservative socialist they still want private interests to grow but at the same time care somewhat for the bottom-feeders whom they keep on a state sponsored stipend. In my eyes there are 2 types of tories the first are those who actually represent private interests themselves, classic toffs who do not want to be taxed. The second type are the new comers who do not really know of the sinister ideology they're signing up for but see them as the best alternative to Labour. I wonder if anybody watched the recent documentary on the fall of Singapore - behavior typical of a conservative peer.

We are essentially at the final stage of the liberal capitalist democracy where private interests come to control every aspect of your life, politics is largely just a show now because new labour and the tories are both capitalist, only one is soft around the edges and the other wants to chainsaw its way through whatever public institutions this country has left. They both seek to engage in destructive wars in order to let markets expand.

Still - Vote labour I say, the lesser of two evils, in this system fringe parties haven't got a chance in hell of making a difference so don't bother.

[billydisco]

(Original post by pink pineapple)
Rencently, I've come across a lot of threads on here about how Labour 'destroyed our country'. Yes, they may have not made the country exactly brilliant but then people go on to say how they will only vote Conservative. But in reality, how have the Conservatives actually tried changed our for entirely for the better, except from cutting public services as an assumption that everything in the future will be perfect. Also, I really dislike the stereotype on here of the typical Labour voter e.g under-class, on the dole etc as I don't believe it to be true.

Well Labour do represent people on the dole- that is a fact.

Conservatives dont represent millionaires (on the whole) they represent the middle class.

The fact Labour opened the floodgates on immigration just to get more voters shows what pure scum they are. Then look at their main personalities: Blair, Harman, Balls and the hypocritical Abbot.......

Blair told us all to get our kids MMR'd and yet wouldnt tell us if Leo had. Diane Abbot tells us private and grammar schools are bad and sends her kids to one of the best private schools in London.......