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The BMI system doesn't work

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    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...ren-obese.html

    "To all outward appearances Logan Knowles is a healthy, active little boy. The football-mad four-year-old loves nothing more than kicking a ball about in the garden after school, and if he’s not practising his goal-scoring skills then he’s usually to be found tearing around on his bike.

    So imagine his mother Stefanie’s shock — and outrage — when in January this year she received a letter from the NHS saying her son was ‘clinically obese’ and warning that he was at risk of heart disease, cancer and diabetes.
    ‘I was absolutely furious — there’s nothing of him,’ Stefanie says. ‘If anything, he is skinny for his age. He still wears clothing labelled for a three-year-old, although he is nearly five. There’s not an extra ounce of fat on his body — sometimes you can see his ribs.’

    The letter arrived after Logan was weighed at school as part of the controversial National Child Measurement Programme, which started in 2005 and assesses the heights and weights of children in their first and last years of primary school.
    As a result, hundreds of ordinary-looking children, like Logan, have received letters informing them they are overweight or obese, an often distressing experience for both child and parents.
    Logan is 3ft 3in tall, and at 2st 12lb is a mere three pounds outside the recommended weight range for his peers. But at such a young age, that tiny difference makes an immense difference to his BMI, putting him on the 99th centile.

    For adults, BMI is measured by dividing weight in kilograms by height in metres squared. But the calculation for children is different. It begins the same way, but the result is then compared with others of the same age and sex to calculate the child’s ‘centile’ — or position relative to others on a scale of one to 100."


    If you happen to be tall or you're muscular you're going to weigh more but this doesn't mean that you're overweight and obese.

    It's the same at the other end of the scale too. I'm 19 and before I went on the pill at 17 I weighed about 7 stone. At 5 foot 2 my BMI was about 17.5 and that is classed as underweight. My doctor told me to put on weight, I was appalled because I was perfectly healthy. I'm short and naturally small framed so of course I'm going to be light. I was 5 stone at 12 years old, and 6 stone when I was 13. I'm now 7 stone 10 and only just in the "healthy weight" range with a BMI of 19.5. I think a new system is needed because the BMI system doesn't work.
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    Yes it's complete rubbish, a lot of people realise that.

    And a lot do not. Pretty much anything that comes from the NHS with regard to body composition, fitness and nutrition should be completely disregarded.
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    Hmm the main complaint there is about the children's one though. Obviously it's skewwed totally for people who are muscular and makes no allowance for build/small frame or whatever but it does have merits. I have found it pretty accurate. I think you're reading too much into 'underweight'. It doesn't neccessarily mean, oooo danger skin and bones, fragile blah blah blah. You can of course be absolutely fit and healthy with a BMI of 17-18 or around that range. The problem really lies in reserves. You don't have near as much as someone a stone heavier. It's a lot better to be heavier but still slim and be able to withstand illness much more effectively. I am 5'3 and my weight hovers from 7 stone 6- 7 stone 11 so at the lower end is probably similar to you. I am fit and healthy, I'm not about to break apart. But I am noticeably thin and when I get sick, my body just isn't able for it and I lose weight rapidly- I went down to just over 6 stone when I was diagnosed with IBS last year. It took ages to recover my weight and in the meantime I felt like crap all the time. That is probably what your doctor was driving at. Not that you are dangerously thin or even skinny, he probably would acknowledge that you are just as fit and healthy as say your friend X who is 8 stone 11 or whatever.

    I'm not sure how it could really be improved? How could it really take into account muscle mass and frame size.
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    Yes the BMI system does work, but only as a guideline! Yeah everyone's shapes and frames are different, but if you're classed as underweight or severely underweight then i'm afraid you are. Ever tried just putting on a tiny bit of weight? Maybe in muscle or a little bit of fat, super skinny doesn't work, trust me on that!
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    (Original post by iEmily)
    Yes the BMI system does work, but only as a guideline! Yeah everyone's shapes and frames are different, but if you're classed as underweight or severely underweight then i'm afraid you are. Ever tried just putting on a tiny bit of weight? Maybe in muscle or a little bit of fat, super skinny doesn't work, trust me on that!
    I'm not and have never been super skinny, I am pretty slim but I'm like that naturally. I'm one of these people who eats whatever they want, doesn't do any exercise and doesn't gain any weight. If it wasn't for the pill I'd still be "underweight".
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    (Original post by rainbow.panda)
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...ren-obese.html

    "To all outward appearances Logan Knowles is a healthy, active little boy. The football-mad four-year-old loves nothing more than kicking a ball about in the garden after school, and if he’s not practising his goal-scoring skills then he’s usually to be found tearing around on his bike.

    So imagine his mother Stefanie’s shock — and outrage — when in January this year she received a letter from the NHS saying her son was ‘clinically obese’ and warning that he was at risk of heart disease, cancer and diabetes.
    ‘I was absolutely furious — there’s nothing of him,’ Stefanie says. ‘If anything, he is skinny for his age. He still wears clothing labelled for a three-year-old, although he is nearly five. There’s not an extra ounce of fat on his body — sometimes you can see his ribs.’

    The letter arrived after Logan was weighed at school as part of the controversial National Child Measurement Programme, which started in 2005 and assesses the heights and weights of children in their first and last years of primary school.
    As a result, hundreds of ordinary-looking children, like Logan, have received letters informing them they are overweight or obese, an often distressing experience for both child and parents.
    Logan is 3ft 3in tall, and at 2st 12lb is a mere three pounds outside the recommended weight range for his peers. But at such a young age, that tiny difference makes an immense difference to his BMI, putting him on the 99th centile.

    For adults, BMI is measured by dividing weight in kilograms by height in metres squared. But the calculation for children is different. It begins the same way, but the result is then compared with others of the same age and sex to calculate the child’s ‘centile’ — or position relative to others on a scale of one to 100."


    If you happen to be tall or you're muscular you're going to weigh more but this doesn't mean that you're overweight and obese.

    It's the same at the other end of the scale too. I'm 19 and before I went on the pill at 17 I weighed about 7 stone. At 5 foot 2 my BMI was about 17.5 and that is classed as underweight. My doctor told me to put on weight, I was appalled because I was perfectly healthy. I'm short and naturally small framed so of course I'm going to be light. I was 5 stone at 12 years old, and 6 stone when I was 13. I'm now 7 stone 10 and only just in the "healthy weight" range with a BMI of 19.5. I think a new system is needed because the BMI system doesn't work.
    You'd struggle to find one of these guys who isn't overweight, and quite a few will be obese too, according to BMI. So yes, it's rubbish, go by bodyfat percentage instead.
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    I was just talking about this on my facebook earlier.

    This is my 6 year old daughter :

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...87327989_n.jpg

    according to her percentile, she is severely overweight (bordering obese).

    Load of *******s if you ask me.

    oh and while we're at it....

    the kid on the right is my "overweight" 4 year old son. The kid on the left is my normal weighted 2 year old son, but he's not actually that far off overweight apparently (82nd centile)

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...00930547_n.jpg

    I'm clearly raising kids that are of gargantuan proportions lol [/sarcasm]
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    Probably thrown off a bit by her long legs? Whatever about adults, centiles for growing children is a load of crap. Obviously it's neccessary to track that a baby is getting enough intake etc. and to keep an eye on children who are very thin or who really are too overweight, but for your average growing child- pointless.
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    (Original post by rainbow.panda)
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...ren-obese.html

    "To all outward appearances Logan Knowles is a healthy, active little boy. The football-mad four-year-old loves nothing more than kicking a ball about in the garden after school, and if he’s not practising his goal-scoring skills then he’s usually to be found tearing around on his bike.

    So imagine his mother Stefanie’s shock — and outrage — when in January this year she received a letter from the NHS saying her son was ‘clinically obese’ and warning that he was at risk of heart disease, cancer and diabetes.
    ‘I was absolutely furious — there’s nothing of him,’ Stefanie says. ‘If anything, he is skinny for his age. He still wears clothing labelled for a three-year-old, although he is nearly five. There’s not an extra ounce of fat on his body — sometimes you can see his ribs.’

    The letter arrived after Logan was weighed at school as part of the controversial National Child Measurement Programme, which started in 2005 and assesses the heights and weights of children in their first and last years of primary school.
    As a result, hundreds of ordinary-looking children, like Logan, have received letters informing them they are overweight or obese, an often distressing experience for both child and parents.
    Logan is 3ft 3in tall, and at 2st 12lb is a mere three pounds outside the recommended weight range for his peers. But at such a young age, that tiny difference makes an immense difference to his BMI, putting him on the 99th centile.

    For adults, BMI is measured by dividing weight in kilograms by height in metres squared. But the calculation for children is different. It begins the same way, but the result is then compared with others of the same age and sex to calculate the child’s ‘centile’ — or position relative to others on a scale of one to 100."


    If you happen to be tall or you're muscular you're going to weigh more but this doesn't mean that you're overweight and obese.

    It's the same at the other end of the scale too. I'm 19 and before I went on the pill at 17 I weighed about 7 stone. At 5 foot 2 my BMI was about 17.5 and that is classed as underweight. My doctor told me to put on weight, I was appalled because I was perfectly healthy. I'm short and naturally small framed so of course I'm going to be light. I was 5 stone at 12 years old, and 6 stone when I was 13. I'm now 7 stone 10 and only just in the "healthy weight" range with a BMI of 19.5. I think a new system is needed because the BMI system doesn't work.
    The 99th centile would mean he's heavier than NINETY EIGHT PERCENT of kids that age. And being three pounds more than he should be when he weighs forty pounds overall is a pretty big percentage. It's not something parents should be worrying about but it's certainly something they should be aware of.

    Furthermore, you can't compare the BMI measurement for adults and children because they're calculated in different ways. BMI doesn't really work for some people e.g. professional rugby players or very very tall women but for the vast majority it's a really good guide.

    Incidentally, all but one of the mums in your link is clearly overweight.
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    The thing is, BMI is fine when it is used as a GUIDELINE (by people of reasonable intelligence). If you go to the doctors and he works out your BMI as obese but also notes that you have very little fat and a lot of muscle, he will not tell you that you are too fat and that you should lose weight. When people like those at the Daily Mail use BMI (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...t-results.html), it is a totally different matter. BMI should only be used as a guide- if it says that you're overweight but you are clearly in excellent health and at a good weight, then take it with a pinch of salt.
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    (Original post by Norton1)
    The 99th centile would mean he's heavier than NINETY EIGHT PERCENT of kids that age.
    I know you weren't aiming this at me, but anyway....

    surely you should take into account how big the child was at birth? I mean, if the child was born in the 97-99th centile, then it would follow that the kid is going to follow along that curve for a lot of their childhood?

    All of mine were big babies. my daughter was 10lbs 10oz at birth, my middle kid (the 4 year old boy) was 10lbs 1oz, and my little son was 11lbs 0.7oz.

    This was my youngest when he was born :

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._3198017_n.jpg

    Really, you wouldn't look at a baby that size and think "well, clearly that child is going to be a midget when he gets older". The kid was like a baby elephant! He was literally about 20 minutes old in that photo!
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    (Original post by PinkMobilePhone)
    I know you weren't aiming this at me, but anyway....

    surely you should take into account how big the child was at birth? I mean, if the child was born in the 97-99th centile, then it would follow that the kid is going to follow along that curve for a lot of their childhood?

    All of mine were big babies. my daughter was 10lbs 10oz at birth, my middle kid (the 4 year old boy) was 10lbs 1oz, and my little son was 11lbs 0.7oz.

    This was my youngest when he was born :

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._3198017_n.jpg

    Really, you wouldn't look at a baby that size and think "well, clearly that child is going to be a midget when he gets older". The kid was like a baby elephant! He was literally about 20 minutes old in that photo!
    I'm not a Doctor or anything, no medical training whatsoever so take what I say with a pinch of salt. There is some evidence that high birth weight does correlate to obesity - http://www.jfponline.com/Pages.asp?AID=6267 - but clearly the lifestyle choices parents make for their children are going to have significantly more effect.

    I think it's highly unlikely that the NHS would spend millions of pounds each year on doing this if it was a pointless exercise. The thing to remember is that BMI in children takes into account height and weight but in comparison to other children of that age it doesn't give a healthy range as children are growing all the time. So, as I say, when the child is heavier than 98% of all the comparable (height and weight) children of that age they are a really good guide.
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    I would say BMI is for those who are 21 years old and over, telling a child he is obese from whacking a few numbers together whilst he is still growing does not work. The idea of BMI is good, it is right for all those people who are in the lower and middle categories, it can tell people that they are too light for their size, this could be because of eating disorders or just general I do not eat alot or genetics who knows. For those who are ranging from normal to obese it tells them they do not need to worry so much about High blood pressure caused by being obese. For those who are rated in the red as being obese and morbidly obese it can tell them that they do need to lost weight as it can prove problematic for their bones especially their knees due to the high pressure they will be under to do for weight.

    Of course there are problems with this system, it cannot really be used for children due to the nature of their growth hormones, they are always growing. Being given the title of morbidly obese even though your a muscle builder may seem silly but the BMI of oneself can show that their is extra tension on the bones of the body which can lead to arthritis and it can tell the person that maybe they need to stop muscle building. Just my opinion...
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    (Original post by NB_ide)
    Yes it's complete rubbish, a lot of people realise that.

    And a lot do not. Pretty much anything that comes from the NHS with regard to body composition, fitness and nutrition should be completely disregarded.
    I really do think that last comment is unfair, the BMI was formulated in 19th-century Belgium and is used in just about every health system in the world.

    Whilst it may produce serious errors in some cases, for most people in most circumstances most of the time, it is a quick, cheap, reliable and reasonably meaningful way of assessing where someone sits with respect to their weight. Whilst you can throw the system with excess muscle, by very definition, most people don't shoot beyond the average.
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    BMI is by no means an exact science. It doesn't work for athletes, amputees and young children to some extent.
    However, as a way of getting a general idea of how healthy your weight is, it's the simplest method around and anyone can do it in their own home.
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    Seems like using it for kids isn't accurate at all. So why do it? Surely just looking at a child indicates whether they need to lose weight at all.
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    Whilst i agree i dont think your case is comparable to that of the little boy. 7 stone is too light for a seventeen year old girl of 5 foot 2 and your doctor was probably right to tell you so.
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    i dont see whats wrong... i would have thought there was a seperate adult and child version (as they kind of admit), clearly messed up on the child version...calculations and such that or maybe there shouldnt be a kids version? maybe one only for adults? i remember trying to find my bmi when i was a kid and there was an age verifier on the site

    i wouldnt say its perfectly suited for everyone but like i said, i dont see whats wrong...

    regarding yourself... post pics to see if your claims have substance
    if you perceive yourself as bigger than you really are like in those anorexic ads (not saying your anorexic), saying of course you should be lighter because your shorter shouldnt hold much (given that bmi also uses your height)...then again, im no expert, who knows, maybe youre right... it would be easier to see a pic of a person with said height and weight
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    (Original post by PinkMobilePhone)
    I was just talking about this on my facebook earlier.

    This is my 6 year old daughter :

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...87327989_n.jpg

    according to her percentile, she is severely overweight (bordering obese).

    Load of *******s if you ask me.

    oh and while we're at it....

    the kid on the right is my "overweight" 4 year old son. The kid on the left is my normal weighted 2 year old son, but he's not actually that far off overweight apparently (82nd centile)

    https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net...00930547_n.jpg

    I'm clearly raising kids that are of gargantuan proportions lol [/sarcasm]
    Clearly you need to stop feeding them, its child abuse aint it :mad::mad:

    They look like healthy fit kids to me... 11lb odd ounces? OUCH. :eek:
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    Hmm, 10 pounds difference in what she actually said, 7 stone 10. I do agree though. I am actually that exact weight and although I have an extra inch in height, it doesn't make a big difference. Being the inch smaller is still going to be thin and it's still going to be better to be a good few pounds heavier. As I said before, not neccessarily for health reasons, as it is absolutely possible to be that weight and be totally fine, particulary in the case of people who have been like that all their lives and don't gain weight (like myself also). But for reasons of reserves, it really takes sooo much out of you, you have nothing to fall back on. And that really is the purpose of bodyfat. Not that it's a given that the OP would experience that, but she is in the category of those who do. I know myself that I should ideally be a stone heavier, even though my BMI is technically normal. Can never break that 8 stone mark though.

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