[Herr]

(Original post by Fires)
We already established you are Owning/Upper Class didn't we? There didn't seem to be room for doubt.

I thought in Germany you had to use "Sie" with your parents until a certain age, am I wrong about that?

Sie is the formal way of saying "you" in German. It is hardly used in homes these days and certainly not used by children to address their parents. The only time it is used among family member is when speaking to a grandparent, even that is rare these days.

Since when was it established I was in the Upper Class?? I work for a living, thank you very much.

You do realize many in the upper classes get far more in benefits than that usual stereotypical chav benefit scrounger? Have a read up on how much the Queen received in CAP payments

(Original post by Fires)
It might depend a bit - if you were like a multi-millionaire fisherman with 200 boats under your control - but generally, yes, no doubt about it.

You do realize that just owning a trawler bring in loads of money? Definitely a lot more than the usual working class type jobs.

[Herr]

(Original post by fudgesundae)
like 1920s I think.

I thought it was in the 1950s since that's when they had their royal charter?

[Tahooper]

(Original post by marky--mark)
I am working class, despite fairly middle-class attitudes... I just can't afford to be middle class

Still, some day...

You may not be economically middle-class, but if you act like someone from the middle-class and have middle-class values then socially I would say you are middle-class.

[UCLEmily]

(Original post by fudgesundae)
like 1920s I think.

LOL. As in F Scott Fitzgerald or Evelyn Waugh?

[fudgesundae]

(Original post by Herr)
I thought it was in the 1950s since that's when they had their royal charter?

Just checked, yep you're correct.

(Original post by UCLEmily)
LOL. As in F Scott Fitzgerald or Evelyn Waugh?

Sorry what?

[__IWalkTheLine]

I think class is very hard to pin down as there are so many factors involved. I'm at Edinburgh studying Law so a person would probably automatically assume I'm from some section of the middle class - but I wouldn't say so. I got here through state schooling, and my parents didn't go to university as they didn't have the opportunity when they were younger. My dad's very involved with the trade unions in his work, and I think to an extent that's been responsible for shaping my political views.

In an ideal world class wouldn't be an issue, and I think to an extent it is becoming less important in society, but I've still found that compared to most of the people around me at university, I've had different experiences in life. It's very interesting.

I'd just like to add that despite having not been formally educated to a high level, my parents are very intelligent, well-informed people - so being working class isn't necessarily an indication of somehow being less clever or less interested in the world than those of a higher class, as is sometimes suggested.

Then, of course, there's the social mobility issue. I may come from a working class background, but it's likely that when I leave university and start my career, I'd be defined as somewhere within the middle class, as would any children I have.

[Fires]

(Original post by __IWalkTheLine)
I think class is very hard to pin down as there are so many factors involved. I'm at Edinburgh studying Law so a person would probably automatically assume I'm from some section of the middle class - but I wouldn't say so. I got here through state schooling, and my parents didn't go to university as they didn't have the opportunity when they were younger. My dad's very involved with the trade unions in his work, and I think to an extent that's been responsible for shaping my political views.

In an ideal world class wouldn't be an issue, and I think to an extent it is becoming less important in society, but I've still found that compared to most of the people around me at university, I've had different experiences in life. It's very interesting.

I'd just like to add that despite having not been formally educated to a high level, my parents are very intelligent, well-informed people - so being working class isn't necessarily an indication of somehow being less clever or less interested in the world than those of a higher class, as is sometimes suggested.

Then, of course, there's the social mobility issue. I may come from a working class background, but it's likely that when I leave university and start my career, I'd be defined as somewhere within the middle class, as would any children I have.

I assume if you are training in Law at Edinburgh and (as you say) surrounded by (upper?) middle class types, you are in some way "becoming middle-class", does that feel like it's your choice? I mean, do you want to be defined that way?

[kaneboy]

(Original post by Fires)
It can be difficult to pin down sometimes, but from the fact that you are at private school and have a Doctor as a mother, I would also say you are Upper-Middle, even if you don't feel that you are. Some kids are of a higher class than their parents.

Yeah man, possibly. But I think the real thing that distinguishes one person's class from another's, is their mind-set. Though hard to measure, I think it's how somebody acts and aspires, that should demonstrate the true 'meaning' of their class, which after all is supposed to represent their 'value' as a person within society.

Take for example John. John was born into money, his parents own a huge estate, and he goes to the best school in the country. He, however, is a lazy bastard, and does not care about academia or sport in any way. He has no aspirations in life, other than to have a nice sheltered life-style. He speaks like a 'chav' and lacks 'class'.

Now, let's take Joseph. Joseph's parents are both miners (coal diggers, not youths ;]), and he attends an average school. He has aspirations of becoming a doctor, and thinks about philosophy on a deep level. He gets straight A's, and is on the football team. He is also involved in a lot of charity work - he's generally a nice, well-spoken young man.

Who is of a higher class? Just something for you and whoever else to think about

[zara55]

(Original post by kaneboy)
Yeah man, possibly. But I think the real thing that distinguishes one person's class from another's, is their mind-set. Though hard to measure, I think it's how somebody acts and aspires, that should demonstrate the true 'meaning' of their class, which after all is supposed to represent their 'value' as a person within society.

Take for example John. John was born into money, his parents own a huge estate, and he goes to the best school in the country. He, however, is a lazy bastard, and does not care about academia or sport in any way. He has no aspirations in life, other than to have a nice sheltered life-style. He speaks like a 'chav' and lacks 'class'.

Now, let's take Joseph. Joseph's parents are both miners (coal diggers, not youths ;]), and he attends an average school. He has aspirations of becoming a doctor, and thinks about philosophy on a deep level. He gets straight A's, and is on the football team. He is also involved in a lot of charity work - he's generally a nice, well-spoken young man.

Who is of a higher class? Just something for you and whoever else to think about

You might not have intended it, but your description of John as lazy and indifferent is not untypical of quite a few wealthy kids - at least, those whom their parents have made it easy for them to be that way.

Joseph is a hard-working and classy working-class guy. Real Class is not ruled out by being working class and class does not dictate the worth of someone. As countless novelists down the centuries have observed.

[kaneboy]

(Original post by zara55)
You might not have intended it, but your description of John as lazy and indifferent is not untypical of quite a few wealthy kids - at least, those whom their parents have made it easy for them to be that way.

Joseph is a hard-working and classy working-class guy. Real Class is not ruled out by being working class and class does not dictate the worth of someone. As countless novelists down the centuries have observed.

It was 100% intended. It was supposed to make you look at things from a different perspective. The point is, SOME wealthy people ARE like that. And I'm telling you this from first hand experience.

On your next point about Joseph, you have only picked up on one thing, the class. Would you not agree that generally, most people would assume that a rich person would have more class than a poor person? And to be honest, this is actually true - to some extent. Especially as the age of chivalry is dying.

Joe - What you wouldn't expect
Joseph - What you wouldn't expect

But the question is, would you allow factors such as education, wealth and family-history outweigh the factors of class, behaviour and outlook? - Basically, which would you see as more important- related to this example. Who is of the higher class?

[Fires]

(Original post by kaneboy)

But the question is, would you allow factors such as education, wealth and family-history outweigh the factors of class, behaviour and outlook? - Basically, which would you see as more important- related to this example. Who is of the higher class?

That's interesting but irrelevant, as social class is not some sort of assumption of moral worth - it's essentially a government statistical exercize in classifying various levels of society that has roots in the analysis of wealth ownership and income distribution. You appear to be confused, which given your stated wealthy background, is unsurprising, at least to me.

[kaneboy]

(Original post by Fires)
That's interesting but irrelevant, as social class is not some sort of assumption of moral worth - it's essentially a government statistical exercize in classifying various levels of society that has roots in the analysis of wealth ownership and income distribution. You appear to be confused, which given your stated wealthy background, is unsurprising, at least to me.

I believe the majority of this thread is filled with people questioning what gives people their class. Being patronizing is cute, however it gets you nowhere.

I did not mention moral worth, I asked about whether other factors of a person's life should be used in determining their class. Is this thread really asking about the government in anyway? No. It asks for people's opinions. It doesn't matter what the government class people as. I see you, just like the majority of society, are hung up on this idea that it's the government who should make the rules.

My overall point is that, regardless of what the government or whoever classes someone as, what are they, really?

[izzabellezi]

I think that in modern society, considering the ease of social mobility and freedoms, the class system is outdated and frankly by using it we are promoting prejudice. People will always have stereotypes for 'working class' and for 'upper class' and in a liberal world this is just not acceptable.

[zara55]

(Original post by kaneboy)
I believe the majority of this thread is filled with people questioning what gives people their class. Being patronizing is cute, however it gets you nowhere.

I did not mention moral worth, I asked about whether other factors of a person's life should be used in determining their class. Is this thread really asking about the government in anyway? No. It asks for people's opinions. It doesn't matter what the government class people as. I see you, just like the majority of society, are hung up on this idea that it's the government who should make the rules.

My overall point is that, regardless of what the government or whoever classes someone as, what are they, really?

There always has to be some agreed way of generally assessing something like this, otherwise its a meaningless term - you appear to be arguing that it's meaningless and can be self-defined, but many would disagree, including social scientists, government statisticians, economists, demographers, etc.

People who push against class definition the most often seem to be the wealthy though, so Fires is right about that.

There shouldn't be stigmas or stereotypes attached to class but there are, because they have evolved, clearly we would all like to rise above the stereotypes handed to us at birth. I was born upper-middle-class - doesn't mean I go around all day long being aloof, shopping at Waitrose, polishing my Jag, drinking Chianti and playing lawn tennis. Although of course I do all of those things from time to time. Well not the Jag or the Chianti. Or the lawn tennis.

[comradejrew]

Upper Middle Class: my Dad is an MD for a Construction company, my Mum is a retired Client Services Director for Coutts. My dad's family were pretty middle class (his parents owned a chain of convenience stores/bakeries), but my mum's were as Working class as they come - Granny worked in the Co-Op, Grandpa was a Miner. My granny was also an immigrant xD.

I guess I can say that I'm U/M because of the fact I've been in private education my whole life, my parents for the large part have had really good jobs and whatnot. My mum only got 2 GCSE's and she ended up managing rich people's money in a private bank. Classic case of social mobility

[SoNottingH]

I think we are upper-middle (my parents describe themselves that way) but we are pretty well off with a large house and investments and stuff and at my school I mix with people who are from quite rich families as well as from upper-middles. I don't know if who you mix with and what school you go to has a bearing? As well as how much money your family has. We do some of the things that upper-middles supposedly do like holidays in Tuscany or being interested in the arts. My father reads the FT and works in the City. My mother reads the Guardian. I read lots of papers on the web!

[Carter78]

Who voted for underclass? How could you have access to the internet and be considered part of the underclass? Go tell that to slum dwellers in the third world...

[HelenOn]

(Original post by Carter78)
Who voted for underclass? How could you have access to the internet and be considered part of the underclass? Go tell that to slum dwellers in the third world...

Lots of people have access to it at school or college who don't have their own laptop or whatever.

Also you need to catch up with world trends - millions and millions of people in poor countries are getting quite capable phones and surfing the web. They might not be on TSR (yet) but they are using text, email, etc.

[HelenOn]

(Original post by SoNottingH)
I think we are upper-middle (my parents describe themselves that way) but we are pretty well off with a large house and investments and stuff and at my school I mix with people who are from quite rich families as well as from upper-middles. I don't know if who you mix with and what school you go to has a bearing? As well as how much money your family has. We do some of the things that upper-middles supposedly do like holidays in Tuscany or being interested in the arts. My father reads the FT and works in the City. My mother reads the Guardian. I read lots of papers on the web!

That's nice for you. Do you feel privileged or just "regular"? I think one of the things that appears to separate the really well-off from the regular upper-middle class is a sort of sense of superiority and innate privilege, or "entitlement".

[SoNottingH]

(Original post by HelenOn)
That's nice for you. Do you feel privileged or just "regular"? I think one of the things that appears to separate the really well-off from the regular upper-middle class is a sort of sense of superiority and innate privilege, or "entitlement".

Hmmm, thinking about that! I feel privileged to be at the school I'm at and to have a lovely family and stuff. I don't go around thinking I'm really it because of my family's money or stupid things like that. I feel privileged sometimes, like when I get nice gifts or go on really nice holidays. The most is when we fly first class or stay in a really smart hotel. I know people don't like to admit feeling inferior or superior, even though lots of times people do feel like that, but sometimes I feel a bit superior when people ask me which school I go to or where I live and stuff.