[zara55]

(Original post by JCC-MGS)
Terraced and ex-c being low-income housing like I said. Since about 20% of the population are social renters I'd still be inclined to say that if you're making the move up from renting a council house to buying one you're approaching the border of lower-middle

You're just repeating the same mantra, that home ownership makes you middle-class. If you want to believe that, fine. Does it apply to your situation?

[JCC-MGS]

(Original post by zara55)
You're just repeating the same mantra, that home ownership makes you middle-class. If you want to believe that, fine. Does it apply to your situation?

You're offering nothing to dissuade me from that view, all you've said is that some owner-occupiers see themselves as working-class, not what makes them working-class. If you can afford to move out of the renting market, what makes you working-class?

[Fires]

(Original post by JCC-MGS)
You're offering nothing to dissuade me from that view, all you've said is that some owner-occupiers see themselves as working-class, not what makes them working-class. If you can afford to move out of the renting market, what makes you working-class?

You need some basic information about class structure. In the UK, it is primarily determined by trade/profession of the Head of Household; by cultural outlook and by looser factors like dress, accent, identity. The first of those is how the government guage it. Millions of people in trades identified as working class own homes.

The confusion you express is a very common one though, which is why people like taxi drivers and garage fitters put themselves down as "middle-class" sometimes when polled - they own a house and falsely believe that makes them "middle". They have no cultural understanding of the concept.

[breakeven]

I'm underclass. Parents were made redundant 2 years ago and haven't been able to find a job since. Older sisters are also on benefits and looking for work. Hence why I cannot stand the stereotype about people on benefits. My family are god hard working people but out town is renowned for being generally crap and having no jobs. Every time there's a news story about high youth unemployment they always do it on my town.

Also, the view that you get loads of money on benefits is total rubbish. I haven't recieved any kind of allowance in two years from my parents and my dad had to sell his car because he couldnt bare to leave us empty handed at christmas.

[nugiboy]

Class is an attitude.

[Fires]

(Original post by breakeven)
I'm underclass. Parents were made redundant 2 years ago and haven't been able to find a job since. Older sisters are also on benefits and looking for work. Hence why I cannot stand the stereotype about people on benefits. My family are god hard working people but out town is renowned for being generally crap and having no jobs. Every time there's a news story about high youth unemployment they always do it on my town.

Also, the view that you get loads of money on benefits is total rubbish. I haven't recieved any kind of allowance in two years from my parents and my dad had to sell his car because he couldnt bare to leave us empty handed at christmas.

Just because your parents can't get jobs doesn't make you "underclass", particularly given the derogatory nature of that term. You are still part of the working class, it's not your fault that the system does not provide enough jobs.

[Vixen47]

(Original post by nickster146)
hmm maybe you should retake that class cos you clearly didnt understand it. just because a large proportion of Bengalis are working class doesn't mean that being Bengali makes you working class... a large proportion of all ethnic minorities in the UK are working class, and yet the richest man in the UK is from an ethnic minority (lakshmi Mittal). either you misunderstood your teacher or their not very good.

I get that, but I said stereotypically I'd be considered lower class. I consider myself middle class due to my family's income, wealth, education etc.
And no, my teacher said these specific words: "Stereotypically Bengali people are considered to be lower class." Other than the literal, I can't think of any other interpretation of that.

[AtomicMan]

oh we have 85 people who are royalty on TSR

[nickster146]

(Original post by Vixen47)
I get that, but I said stereotypically I'd be considered lower class. I consider myself middle class due to my family's income, wealth, education etc.
And no, my teacher said these specific words: "Stereotypically Bengali people are considered to be lower class." Other than the literal, I can't think of any other interpretation of that.

hmmm but still its not that they are considered to be working class, its that they actually are predominantly working class. the majority of all ethnic minorities (i think all) are working class, but that doesnt mean belonging to an ethnic minority is in itself a factor in your socio-economic situation. its because belonging to an ethnic minority brings other factors which affect your class, such as wealth, education, social groups etc. being bengali doesnt affect your class. it might affect how you are stereotyped by others, and it might affect your probability/chance of belonging to a certain social class, but it is not in itself a factor that affects class.
hope this helps you understand

also, i think you mean typically instead of stereotypically. easy to confuse the two but they actually have quite different meanings

[Fires]

(Original post by AtomicMan)
oh we have 85 people who are royalty on TSR

Final Proof that TSR is infested with the upper-class.

[Dalek1099]

(Original post by Iron Lady)
Do you really speak with QE considering that you're from the North East?

If you were born into an "underclass" family, but have ambition, work hard in school, behave and speak nicely, I think it is a bit harsh to say you are "underclass". Background, possibly but attitudes and lifestyle, no. I know plenty of people from higher socioeconomic upbringings, but their behaviour is appalling. Therefore "class" obviously has something to do with how people conduct themselves.

Class comes from whether your parents went to university and the level of their job and possessions and has nothing to do with behaviour and language but these things are often stereotyped as being bad in under/working class people and this was pretty much how I was taught it in school.

[zara55]

(Original post by Dalek1099)
Class comes from whether your parents went to university and the level of their job and possessions and has nothing to do with behaviour and language but these things are often stereotyped as being bad in under/working class people and this was pretty much how I was taught it in school.

I agree about the stereotyping and of course working class people can speak English as well as anyone else - but I don't agree that behaviour and language have nothing to do with class generally, quite the reverse, they have in many people's minds everything to do with it. The behaviour, speech patterns, vocabulary and accents of the classes are quite distinctive and although they vary regionally, many people are often confident they can discern someone's class purely from how they dress, speak and act.

[Dalek1099]

(Original post by zara55)
I agree about the stereotyping and of course working class people can speak English as well as anyone else - but I don't agree that behaviour and language have nothing to do with class generally, quite the reverse, they have in many people's minds everything to do with it. The behaviour, speech patterns, vocabulary and accents of the classes are quite distinctive and although they vary regionally, many people are often confident they can discern someone's class purely from how they dress, speak and act.

I agree that people can guess your class from these characteristics but I was arguing that speaking poshly,doesn't make you upper class and people might think you are but you are still under/working class and I am underclass contrary to some peoples beliefs on here because my mam hasn't worked for 25 years.

[Jadelyndsey]

(Original post by Iron Lady)
May I ask, is this the first time you have ever heard of the social class system? You seem a tad annoyed...

Also, you're correct that money does not define someone, however social class is not just determined by money.

How could you say everyone is 'first class'?

I understand the concept of social stratification thanks, but I completely disagree with it, hence my answer.

I can say that everyone is first class because they are. First class doesn't describe people of the working or middle class, it describes the individuals who fall within it. First class, like the stamp and travel type, implies that nobody (regardless of "class") is better than you are.

That's why I believe that everyone is first class. The people who are of upper class, are not any better than those in the middle class, and those in the middle class are not any better than those of working or lower. This whole concept of a social class system exists to label, isolate, and barricade the people with money and the people without it.

If money doesn't define class, what exactly in your opinion does?

[Fires]

(Original post by Jadelyndsey)
I understand the concept of social stratification thanks, but I completely disagree with it, hence my answer.

I can say that everyone is first class because they are. First class doesn't describe people of the working or middle class, it describes the individuals who fall within it. First class, like the stamp and travel type, implies that nobody (regardless of "class") is better than you are.

That's why I believe that everyone is first class. The people who are of upper class, are not any better than those in the middle class, and those in the middle class are not any better than those of working or lower. This whole concept of a social class system exists to label, isolate, and barricade the people with money and the people without it.

If money doesn't define class, what exactly in your opinion does?

You are just confusing "class" (a more or less objective way of classifying social groups by income, wealth, occupation and culture) with "worth", the value of people. Nobody intelligent thinks that working-class are people are of less "worth" than upper-class people for example, but an interesting side effect of class is that the upper social groups often have feelings of superiority towards the lower. Understandably, you're saying that's not a good thing, but it happens. Many upper class people have traditionally disregarded the wellbeing of the lower orders altogether, as for example in the First World War, when wealthy capitalists made the huge mass of young working class men on each side kill each other for their profits.

[Quick-use]

(Original post by KCosmo)
Lower middle class, first generation in my family to go to university!

Me too.

[isthisthereallife]

(Original post by Vixen47)
Middle class by wealth, parents/siblings professions and their total annual income. However, if we're talking racial stereotypes, then I'm guessing I'd be considered lower class.

EDIT: Wow. I genuinely don't know why I'm being negged. Is it because of the racial stereotypes? I actually studied this in Sociology when I was doing my GCSEs and my teacher (also Bengali) specifically said that we're considered lower class because of our race. Hence the reason I included it. Society today may be more tolerable to ethnic minorities, but statistics show that Bengali's are underachieving greatly (in terms of education, employment etc.) compared to other races.

19 negs (so far) and no replies? C'mon neggers. You can't leave me hanging here. Tell me what you're thinking.

Yes. To suggest you are a certain class because of your race is absolutely nuts!

While a very high percentage of Bengali's might be working class, that doesn't mean all are.

I really don't care about class and find it is one of the things that holds the UK back.

But it is defined by mainly by values and beliefs. Education and wealth come next - however, you can still be upper middle class, or indeed upper class, and not be university educated! Also, the upper class typically don't have much money. They are either rolling in it, or don't have much at all...

You can never really become upper class in the UK, you are born/marry into it.

The different strata's of Middle Class are the area most defined by money.

There are still loads of working class people who have shedloads of cash too! But their attitudes, values etc make them working class.

Someone with an aspiration to better themselves, perhaps through their accomplishments, achieving educationally etc, that makes them middle class.

Like I say tho, I don't agree with the class system. I don't care - I'm interested in personality, the person, how they are - that's what matters.

[zara55]

(Original post by jo1692)
Kind of complex issue. With no judgement or opinion on the evils and positives of a class system (cannot be bothered for that discussion right now!):

Mother is of working class stock - her father owned a small butcher's shop. Dad was upper working class (his dad was a Polish service engineer, but before Russians took everything from his family in WW2 they were small landowners, and probably upper middle class), but became middle class through grammar school and UCL education. Then both my parents became middle-senior civil servants and moved to an "executive detached" in suburbia, cementing their new-found middle class-ness. I went to a state school in a predominantly upper middle class area, then moved to Munich in Germany where there is supposedly no such thing as class. That, however, is a complete and utter lie. Boyfriend (parents psychologist and magazine editor, city apartment and second home in the Alps) firmly upper middle class and new friends here are too. But our personal income is all self-earned and pretty low at the moment, somewhere in the region of 700 Euro each a month. So I don't know, you decide!

You are upper-middle class, because of your parent's educational background, betrayed by your written standards and your cultural norms. Income does not affect this yet as presumably you are still young, but it might longer-term if you grow older and remain poor.

[jo1692]

(Original post by zara55)
You are upper-middle class, because of your parent's educational background, betrayed by your written standards and your cultural norms. Income does not affect this yet as presumably you are still young, but it might longer-term if you grow older and remain poor.

Yes, although as for parents' educational background - my mum actually dropped out of school at 16, but I didn't mention that. She worked her way up from filing secretary to manager.

You don't notice when you're surrounded by people who make the same kinds of lifestyle choices (e.g. leisure activities, holidays they go on, supermarket they shop in etc), but when I worked as a volunteer in South Wales I noticed these differences. They thought I was posh, I'd never even really considered it before. On the other hand, when at a university open day, a girl from another part of the country asked me, not where I go to school, but what school I go to. Such a question assumes a certain kind of answer. When I replied that she was unlikely to have heard of it, what with it being an obscure state school and all, a sharp "hm" and a toss of the head followed.

And I would say that the people I know in Munich don't have a class obsession, but have more a money obsession, which basically leads to a similar outcome i.e. looking down on those poorer than them. I wouldn't necessarily say that such a system affords more social (or financial?) mobility either, as a lot of the higher-paying jobs and internships for better-paying professions are gained through friends and family. Also, the wealthiest tend to hang out in the same kinds of places, be friends with the same kinds of people, and thus form a social group not unlike a social class.

[Bubblyminty]

I am probably working class because my parents have a normal standard job and they were poor when they were younger. They lived in China and worked on the farm as children and had no time to go to school...now that they have given me the opportunity to better myself, I want to become middle class someday.