[Moleman1996]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
Is that where you have Mr Price, Mrs Price, little Johnny Price, his brother Jamie, and sister Wendy, and their little dog Casper and they all go off into the countryside for a ramble even though it's raining the proverbial pets? No one else would do it, but that's the Price system for you.





No? Oh.

how about where you make bags of money without any real talent?

Oh no, wrong also, that's the Katie Price system...

[PierceBrosnan]

Nay.

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by Moleman1996)
how about where you make bags of money without any real talent?

Oh no, wrong also, that's the Katie Price system...

Oodles of crap plastic toys for little children? Oh no, wrong also, that's the Fisher Price system. This could go on all day!

[Moleman1996]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
Oodles of crap plastic toys for little children? Oh no, wrong also, that's the Fisher Price system. This could go on all day!

It could, couldn't it

Cheap crap of almost every variety imaginable? Oops, wrong again, that's the Smart Price system!

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by Moleman1996)
It could, couldn't it

Cheap crap of almost every variety imaginable? Oops, wrong again, that's the Smart Price system!

Classic camp horror of the Tim Burton kind? Oops, no not a Libertarian's disco outfit, but the Vincent Price system!

[Moleman1996]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
Classic camp horror of the Tim Burton kind? Oops, no not a Libertarian's disco outfit, but the Vincent Price system!

well we all know you've got to get as close as possible with the price system.

Damn, that's the Price is Right system

[Ham and Cheese]

Apologies everyone for not being on this sooner! I have been working solidly over the weekend, and I am now at my second job defending this bill!

Happy to answer questions

(Original post by Abiraleft)
No, for reasons already stated by others.

Out of interest, though, would this have any effect on foreign students going to the UK to study?

Why? Foreign students will still be able to come to the UK and study.

(Original post by Morgsie)
I would like to clarify that the UK can put a cap when a new State becomes part of the European Union. Though you cannot put a cap on EU migration, Freedom of Movement is one of the fundamental principles

Yes, and this bill upholds Freedom of Movement. This bill is to control non-EU immigration.

[Ham and Cheese]

(Original post by MacCuishy)
It is wrong to freeze all immigration outside of the UK for 3 years, companies need to import specialist employees.

They will be able to hire specialist employees; the freeze does not apply to visas in Tier 1 and 2.

[Ham and Cheese]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
I know what you were saying, but it's still wholly daft. Whether you impose this bill tomorrow or in three years time, the effect you want simply won't happen. Stopping immigration won't alter the basis of high unemployment.

No one is suggesting that we have high unemployment in this country because of immigration, but freezing immigration in Tier 3 will certainly help. There are a lot of people on unemployment benefits who simply cannot find work; if we freeze immigration for Tier 3 visas (unskilled labour), then we can start giving these jobs to these people. Why bring in an immigrant to do a cleaner's job, when we have an unemployed British citizen who could do it?

(Original post by Birchington)
Apologies if my answer was too vague, but I disagree with this bill and previous criticisms have been raised which I didn't feel the need to repeat. My primary concern about this bill is the economic impact of imposing a zero-access approach to non-EU immigration.

I didn't feel the need to elaborate as my position is already clear, but I can if you wish.

I would like to clarify that I am not proposing a total freeze on immigration for three years. The freeze on immigration will only be for people applying for Tier 3 visas; I will make this clearer in the Second Reading.

Highly educated immigrants, immigrants with an offer of employment over £21k and students will still be allowed to come to the UK and help benefit our economy.

[Ham and Cheese]

(Original post by jesusandtequila)
Crossing a border is search of a better life should not be a crime. No.

Do you not believe that we should even cap immigration?

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by Ham and Cheese)
No one is suggesting that we have high unemployment in this country because of immigration, but freezing immigration in Tier 3 will certainly help. There are a lot of people on unemployment benefits who simply cannot find work; if we freeze immigration for Tier 3 visas (unskilled labour), then we can start giving these jobs to these people. Why bring in an immigrant to do a cleaner's job, when we have an unemployed British citizen who could do it?

There's two words to describe this: xenophobic *******s. The reason immigrants came over to do those jobs was because British people either won't or, having looked at impossibility of keeping a family solely on such a wage, can't. And, before you complain loudly, it's ever been this way. Who built the Scottish dams, British dockyards, railways and canals? Immigrants. You simply have to get into your xenophobic head that there are some jobs British people just won't do any more.

[dgeorge]

(Original post by Ham and Cheese)
No one is suggesting that we have high unemployment in this country because of immigration, but freezing immigration in Tier 3 will certainly help. There are a lot of people on unemployment benefits who simply cannot find work; if we freeze immigration for Tier 3 visas (unskilled labour), then we can start giving these jobs to these people. Why bring in an immigrant to do a cleaner's job, when we have an unemployed British citizen who could do it?



I would like to clarify that I am not proposing a total freeze on immigration for three years. The freeze on immigration will only be for people applying for Tier 3 visas; I will make this clearer in the Second Reading.

Highly educated immigrants, immigrants with an offer of employment over £21k and students will still be allowed to come to the UK and help benefit our economy.

As per usual, I'd point out that perception and reality are two different things.

I was working as a cleaner at a caravan park (in North Wales) and the management was almost begging us to find more cleaners, because the entire cleaning staff was made up of foreign students (who would soon be leaving or returning to class for the next semester) and Eastern Europeans! Out of a bus that held 50 that went from my university, there were 0 (none, zero, zilch) native born British who bothered to stay on for the job. The closest we got was a young girl who had been living in Britain for 5-6 years (from Zimbabwe I think) and an Irish girl.

Yes there will, of course, be MANY people who are looking for low minimum wage jobs, but it is a fallacy to think that these will automatically be filled by locals once immigrants are taken out of the equation

[Ham and Cheese]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
There's two words to describe this: xenophobic *******s. The reason immigrants came over to do those jobs was because British people either won't or, having looked at impossibility of keeping a family solely on such a wage, can't. And, before you complain loudly, it's ever been this way. Who built the Scottish dams, British dockyards, railways and canals? Immigrants. You simply have to get into your xenophobic head that there are some jobs British people just won't do any more.

Pursuing a responsible immigration policy and seeking to tackle unemployment is far from xenophobic. This is the problem with society today and why people are so scared to voice their opinions on immigration; as soon as anyone says something remotely anti-immigration, everyone one the left-wing brands them as racist and xenophobic.

Immigrants can be good for the economy and this Government accepts that, which is why are not freezing immigration for those applying for Tier 1 and 2 visas. However, you are quite happy to accept that British people are too proud to become a cleaner and would rather live on benefits; you see this as a lifestyle choice rather than a safety net, and this bill eradicates this lifestyle choice.

We are freezing immigration for those applying for Tier 3 visas (unskilled labour), so that we can give them to our own unemployed citizens. This policy is in line with current legislation which prohibits people from declining jobs and still receiving benefits; refuse work and you lose your benefits.

[Ham and Cheese]

(Original post by dgeorge)
As per usual, I'd point out that perception and reality are two different things.

I was working as a cleaner at a caravan park (in North Wales) and the management was almost begging us to find more cleaners, because the entire cleaning staff was made up of foreign students (who would soon be leaving or returning to class for the next semester) and Eastern Europeans! Out of a bus that held 50 that went from my university, there were 0 (none, zero, zilch) native born British who bothered to stay on for the job. The closest we got was a young girl who had been living in Britain for 5-6 years (from Zimbabwe I think) and an Irish girl.

Yes there will, of course, be MANY people who are looking for low minimum wage jobs, but it is a fallacy to think that these will automatically be filled by locals once immigrants are taken out of the equation

I appreciate what you are saying, which is why this bill only freezes immigration for those applying for Tier 3 visas (unskilled labour); Tiers 1 & 2 and students will still be welcome to come to the UK.

Exactly! The problem is that we have inherited this something for nothing culture from Labour, and people think that they can choose to live on benefits or get a job as a cleaner. Most people seem to think that a cleaning job is below them, and therefore choose benefits as their lifestyle choice; this is wrong and must be stopped.

By freezing immigration to Tier 3, there will be more unskilled labour jobs going free; this is a fact. We get these people off welfare and into work; people who refuse employment will lose their benefits.

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by Ham and Cheese)
Pursuing a responsible immigration policy and seeking to tackle unemployment is far from xenophobic. This is the problem with society today and why people are so scared to voice their opinions on immigration; as soon as anyone says something remotely anti-immigration, everyone one the left-wing brands them as racist and xenophobic.

There's a gulf of difference between racism and xenophobia. This is a xenophobic bill, it stigmatises immigrants who come to Britain and work damned hard contributing significantly to the economy. Racism is rather more active and you undo decades of hard work in that field by lumping the two together to attack the Left. People who are scared to voice their opinions on immigration are often not all that clever and see everything as a threat to their mini-me lord of the manorism.

However, you are quite happy to accept that British people are too proud to become a cleaner and would rather live on benefits; you see this as a lifestyle choice rather than a safety net, and this bill eradicates this lifestyle choice.

Not in the slightest. Living on benefits is hardly a life-style choice as you label it; in many areas of the country it's a fact of life. You cannot very easily keep a family (or maintain family life) on the irregular or very low wages of a cleaner.

We are freezing immigration for those applying for Tier 3 visas (unskilled labour), so that we can give them to our own unemployed citizens. This policy is in line with current legislation which prohibits people from declining jobs and still receiving benefits; refuse work and you lose your benefits.

How's about we change that sentence to what it really means: we are freezing immigration for Tier 3 visas (unskilled labour), so that we can force them on our own unemployed citizens. Arbeit macht frei.

[Leon Trotsky]

Only immigrants with PhDs and a job offer in the UK are exempt from the immigration freeze? Are you working under the childish assumption that only people with PhDs would be valuable enough to the economy to let in?

[dgeorge]

(Original post by Ham and Cheese)
I appreciate what you are saying, which is why this bill only freezes immigration for those applying for Tier 3 visas (unskilled labour); Tiers 1 & 2 and students will still be welcome to come to the UK.

Exactly! The problem is that we have inherited this something for nothing culture from Labour, and people think that they can choose to live on benefits or get a job as a cleaner. Most people seem to think that a cleaning job is below them, and therefore choose benefits as their lifestyle choice; this is wrong and must be stopped.

By freezing immigration to Tier 3, there will be more unskilled labour jobs going free; this is a fact. We get these people off welfare and into work; people who refuse employment will lose their benefits.

There will also be fewer jobs available, due to the fact that the freeze will mean fewer immigrants who are no longer renting, buying food, paying utilities, spending money on entertainment etc. It's quite easy to make an emotive argument when you see "other" people moving in and taking "your" jobs (this applies to my country as well, where we have a far higher proportion of immigrants than Britain) but the truth is far more complicated than that.

[tomcol23]

Aye

[jesusandtequila]

(Original post by Ham and Cheese)
Do you not believe that we should even cap immigration?

No. Borders should be open.

[Ham and Cheese]

(Original post by jesusandtequila)
No. Borders should be open.

What a ridiculous idea....

(Original post by dgeorge)
There will also be fewer jobs available, due to the fact that the freeze will mean fewer immigrants who are no longer renting, buying food, paying utilities, spending money on entertainment etc. It's quite easy to make an emotive argument when you see "other" people moving in and taking "your" jobs (this applies to my country as well, where we have a far higher proportion of immigrants than Britain) but the truth is far more complicated than that.

Indeed, but this immigration policy links up with our welfare to work policy. By freeing up some unskilled labour work, we will be able to give it to our own unemployed citizens. Obviously the more skilled immigrants who are earning more, paying more and expect to stay in the UK longer will be exempt from a freeze.

(Original post by Addzter)
Only immigrants with PhDs and a job offer in the UK are exempt from the immigration freeze? Are you working under the childish assumption that only people with PhDs would be valuable enough to the economy to let in?

No, I am not under that childish assumption. Although, it would not be far off from the childish assumption that you make immigration regional and then expect them to remain in that region - oh wait.....

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
Not in the slightest. Living on benefits is hardly a life-style choice as you label it; in many areas of the country it's a fact of life. You cannot very easily keep a family (or maintain family life) on the irregular or very low wages of a cleaner.

How's about we change that sentence to what it really means: we are freezing immigration for Tier 3 visas (unskilled labour), so that we can force them on our own unemployed citizens. Arbeit macht frei.

I agree. However, if a family on benefits need £100 per week for example to survive, then it would much more logical to have one person in that household working as a cleaner and earning £60 a week, and therefore only needing £40 a week in benefits to survive.

Yes! Let's get people off the sofa and into the work place!