[antimilitarist]

Honestly this war has dragged on for over 10 years now, longer than both world wars and yet it’s end is still nowhere in sight. Okay so there have been talks of withdrawing the troops by 2014 but why must it be so long? I hear that by then we will have provided genuine security for the Afghan people to support and defend themselves but if the situation has been unchanged from two years ago with literally no progress whatsoever why do people think it will be different in two years’ time and what’s to stop them from pushing the withdrawal date back further? I’m sick of hearing that this war has made Britain a safer place and as far as I’m concerned it’s done the exact opposite with it being a burden on the British tax payer who ends up paying £13 million a day for it. When will we finally admit defeat and pull out?

[Moleman1996]

Because we have to withdraw gradually. We are training the Afghan army. If we had withdrawn immediately after ousting the Taliban from power, they would have immediately retaken control as soon as we'd left.

[geetar]

As above: they're staying to train the army and police, set up infrastructure, that kind of thing.

Not that it'll do much good, I fear.

[Silkysam]

Also comparing Afghanistan to the World Wars is just stupid and shows your ignorance on this subject. Afghanistan is an asymmetrical war which involves fighting a guerilla force with no real stronghold/ leadership to take down. Whereas the World Wars were conventional wars; which meant winning the war was much simplier, taking the stronghold where the leadership was based (Berlin).

[VeniViciVidi]

(Original post by Moleman1996)
Because we have to withdraw gradually. We are training the Afghan army. If we had withdrawn immediately after ousting the Taliban from power, they would have immediately retaken control as soon as we'd left.

Pretty much this, but I'll like to add a few more points.

Firstly, by in large, the Taliban are defeated. We are not really fighting the Taliban anymore but more of a bi-product of Taliban-influenced coercion and intimidation that makes tribal communities set to resist the intervention (ISAF) forces out of fear of further intimidation from Taliban forces (known as accidental guerrilla warfare). This includes assassination of elders, influential individuals and police. This use of insurgency is paramount to Taliban strategy in Afghanistan who are largely regrouping and using people who do not follow Takifirsm as an ideology to fight for them, but without that motive.

Secondly, in respect to the aforementioned points, the public must be have confidence in the ISAF forces. The Afghan public must feel confident operating with and assisting ISAF forces without fear of persecution from the Taliban. Hence, there has been effort (though, it's effective is arguable) in promotion of democracy and women's rights in the Afghan political system. This is so when the ISAF forces do withdraw, the same method of coercion and intimidation that pre-dated the invasion of Afghanistan does not happen again.

[antimilitarist]

(Original post by geetar)
As above: they're staying to train the army and police, set up infrastructure, that kind of thing.

Not that it'll do much good, I fear.

I fear the exact same. It sure is taking a bloody long time.

(Original post by Silkysam)
Also comparing Afghanistan to the World Wars is just stupid and shows your ignorance on this subject. Afghanistan is an asymmetrical war which involves fighting a guerilla force with no real stronghold/ leadership to take down. Whereas the World Wars were conventional wars; which meant winning the war was much simplier, taking the stronghold where the leadership was based (Berlin).

These seem to be points to suggest that we should be withdrawing from Afghanistan. We don't have the money to fight costly, complex wars during this economic crisis.

[Moleman1996]

(Original post by antimilitarist)
I fear the exact same. It sure is taking a bloody long time.



These seem to be points to suggest that we should be withdrawing from Afghanistan. We don't have the money to fight costly, complex wars during this economic crisis.

you can't just duck out of a war once you're in, it will have reprecussions. Now that we're in Afghanistan, we may as well enusre the money we have spent is not wasted, and make them an ally. We can't afford to ahve spent millions, only to leave and for them to return to being our enemy.

EDIT- If you're interested in more debate etc, you should join a TSR political party and get involved in the MHoC, you could take up a junior ministerial position.

[Silkysam]

(Original post by antimilitarist)
These seem to be points to suggest that we should be withdrawing from Afghanistan. We don't have the money to fight costly, complex wars during this economic crisis.

I wasn't giving an opinion of whether or not we should withdraw, but on you not being knowledgable enough about conflicts to make a judgement either way.

In my opinion now that we're there I would like us to stay until the government of Afghanistan is able to cope on its own (unfortunatly it seems the government is alreadu corrupt). It's not right for us to go in to somewhere, destabilise it and then leave because we get bored.

[I-Am-A-Tripod]

(Original post by antimilitarist)
Honestly this war has dragged on for over 10 years now, longer than both world wars and yet it’s end is still nowhere in sight. Okay so there have been talks of withdrawing the troops by 2014 but why must it be so long? I hear that by then we will have provided genuine security for the Afghan people to support and defend themselves but if the situation has been unchanged from two years ago with literally no progress whatsoever why do people think it will be different in two years’ time and what’s to stop them from pushing the withdrawal date back further? I’m sick of hearing that this war has made Britain a safer place and as far as I’m concerned it’s done the exact opposite with it being a burden on the British tax payer who ends up paying £13 million a day for it. When will we finally admit defeat and pull out?

becuase during both World Wars, we werent interested in training up the germans armed forces, police, installing working democratic government and dealing with terorrsts arriving from various different countries, all the time trying to limit civilian casualty - the WW plans were 'bomb the crap out of germany, italy and japan till they give up

[antimilitarist]

(Original post by Moleman1996)
you can't just duck out of a war once you're in, it will have reprecussions. Now that we're in Afghanistan, we may as well enusre the money we have spent is not wasted, and make them an ally. We can't afford to ahve spent millions, only to leave and for them to return to being our enemy.

The Americans ducked out of Vietnam after investing millions, have they suddenly become a massive threat to American security? The only money that is being wasted is the £13 million a day based on the false justification of being there.

(Original post by Moleman1996)
f you're interested in more debate etc, you should join a TSR political party and get involved in the MHoC, you could take up a junior ministerial position.

Check my post count dude - I'm a newbie who knows nothing about the MHoC though I would be interested and welcome more information on this subject.

[Moleman1996]

(Original post by antimilitarist)
The Americans ducked out of Vietnam after investing millions, have they suddenly become a massive threat to American security? The only money that is being wasted is the £13 million a day based on the false justification of being there.



Check my post count dude - I'm a newbie who knows nothing about the MHoC though I would be interested and welcome more information on this subject.

We're looking for new members Just have a look through any of the ask threads, ask any questions etc. and ask to join a party. Then whichever party you join will help you out, you gradually get into it

[Banburyhammer]

House of Cards. Dont get up and go in haste because the whole thing will collapse.

[adam271]

The Afghanistan war has been going on for a lot longer than 10 years.

[Patriot Rich]

Withdrawing by 2014 isn't exactly that long given how long we've been there already. I'd rather get the job done properly, and stay as long as it takes, than withdraw in an embarrassing mess. When we invaded we destroyed the closest thing to a stable government Afghanistan had. Hence it's our responsibility to replace it with some proper leadership, it's not fair to the Afghan people to leave behind a power vacuum and ultimately the country collapsing into a bloody opium-fuelled mess.

You shouldn't be selfish about this. Yes it's costing British lives and money, but pulling out would have an even worse consequence for the innocent people caught in the middle.

[Moleman1996]

(Original post by adam271)
The Afghanistan war has been going on for a lot longer than 10 years.

11 years. Our invovlement started in 2001, whilst the Northern Alliance had been fighting the taliban for many years prior to American/British intervention, the OP is only refering to our war in Afghanistan

[VeniViciVidi]

(Original post by antimilitarist)
The Americans ducked out of Vietnam after investing millions, have they suddenly become a massive threat to American security? The only money that is being wasted is the £13 million a day based on the false justification of being there.

Which was largely to do with the containment of communism. Takfiri organizations are a threat to national security. Note that national security and human security are two separate entities. It is against US interests for the Takfiri ideology to flourish in largely ungoverned, unstable states. Yemen and Somalia are essentially the new 'Afghanistan' as the al-Qaeda network in Yemen and the horn of Africa are able to mobilize, recruit, train and conduct attacks on the West with a lot of operational flexibility. While I agree that the conduct and strategy of Afghanistan was ill-founded, I don't think the strategy denotes the threat that Takifirism has on national and human security.

[antimilitarist]

(Original post by Silkysam)
In my opinion now that we're there I would like us to stay until the government of Afghanistan is able to cope on its own.

But when will that be? Do you think that we should be wasting more lives and pouring more millions of taxes into this failed mission on the assumption that somehow we will be able to stabilise the region, something that the Soviets also failed to achieve? Perhaps another 10 years ought to do it? No. We must come to the realisation that we have been defeated.

[goku12345]

If we withdraw, some nut who lives in mountains will train people on how to bypass international airport security and blow themselves up on planes...

[Hobo389]

(Original post by antimilitarist)
Honestly this war has dragged on for over 10 years now, longer than both world wars and yet it’s end is still nowhere in sight. Okay so there have been talks of withdrawing the troops by 2014 but why must it be so long? I hear that by then we will have provided genuine security for the Afghan people to support and defend themselves but if the situation has been unchanged from two years ago with literally no progress whatsoever why do people think it will be different in two years’ time and what’s to stop them from pushing the withdrawal date back further? I’m sick of hearing that this war has made Britain a safer place and as far as I’m concerned it’s done the exact opposite with it being a burden on the British tax payer who ends up paying £13 million a day for it. When will we finally admit defeat and pull out?

The main danger of us withdrawing from Afghan is not that the Taliban will take over the country, but that they'll take over the country and then become serious insurgents and a serious threat within Pakistan which is more than likely given the weak position of Pakistan. Pakistan has nuclear weapons, do we want to the Taliban to have them? No. People who call for a withdrawal from Afghan are naive to think we have won and that the Taliban are no longer a threat to Britain. They are no longer perceived a threat because the armed forces out there are doing a good job in reducing their overseas activities.

[adam271]

(Original post by antimilitarist)
The Americans ducked out of Vietnam after investing millions, have they suddenly become a massive threat to American security? The only money that is being wasted is the £13 million a day based on the false justification of being there.

Vietnam was different. The non-interventionism ideology does not hold any merit any more. When an entire city can be taken out from a missile anywhere in the world you have to change how you view things. We can't pretend that other countries don't exist any more, it is a recipe for destruction. If we leave Afghanistan and allow the Taliban to take control. They will give Al-Qaeda free reign and it will not doubt come back to bite us.