[chefdave]

Despite the fact that Islamic countries tend to fare badly when it comes to closing the gender gap can we learn something from Islam in relation to family values? For example Saudi Arabia is quite rightly viewed as a patriarchal nation (woman are forbidden from driving in the Kingdom etc) but while Westerners may look on and declare such practices 'sexist' there's some evidence to suggest their system has it's advantages: Saudi birthrates are nearly twice as high than the UK's and when polled in 2006 80% of the female respondents argued that men and women should be seperated in the workplace, giving the existing regime an overwhelming mandate. Also while the UK has the highest rate of marital breakup in the EU at 1.8 per 1000 people Pakistan enjoys extemely low levels of divorce because of the social stigma they attach to female divorcees, this again may help explain their relatively high fertility rates when compared with the West.

[Bey Taco]

Because what we really need right now is a increase in birthrate.

Am I missing something here?

[IndyAM]

Low child birth rates =/= low fertility rates

Consider the access to contraception in your argument. The women are being oppressed and too afraid to speak out. Why stick people in a marriage they do not want to be in? IMO the option of divorce for women can only be a good thing.

Please feel free to criticise this and I'll be back in tomorrow to reply

[Dmon1Unlimited]

(Original post by chefdave)
Despite the fact that Islamic countries tend to fare badly when it comes to closing the gender gap can we learn something from Islam in relation to family values? For example Saudi Arabia is quite rightly viewed as a patriarchal nation (woman are forbidden from driving in the Kingdom etc) but while Westerners may look on and declare such practices 'sexist' there's some evidence to suggest their system has it's advantages: Saudi birthrates are nearly twice as high than the UK's and when polled in 2006 80% of the female respondents argued that men and women should be seperated in the workplace, giving the existing regime an overwhelming mandate. Also while the UK has the highest rate of marital breakup in the EU at 1.8 per 1000 people Pakistan enjoys extemely low levels of divorce because of the social stigma they attach to female divorcees, this again may help explain their relatively high fertility rates when compared with the West.

how does not being able to drive relate to saudi birthrates being nearly double? birthrate are to do with cultural norms e.g wanting to have kids, not using condoms etc as well as the divorce bit... since when was the birthrate in this country bad? having larger statistics doesnt mean they are better... with the poll, the people are raised through their culture, if they were raised here, would they not think different?

i dont see how a stigma is good for the uk just because it has a benefit doesnt mean it has a net benefit...

with regard to your examples, i dont think much, but if there are positive aspects with countries that are generally better than the uk (work ethic for example) and this aspect came about through ethically right reasons then sure, said countries have something to teach us in terms of those aspects only...not everything...


can anyone, that doesnt have a potato for a brain, tell me what is wrong with this post?

[fuze-mo25]

there are things every culture has that is better then every other cultures and some things there worse off at.

[chefdave]

(Original post by Dmon1Unlimited)
how does not being able to drive relate to saudi birthrates being nearly double? cultural norms are to do with birthrate e.g wanting to have kids, not using condoms etc as well as the divorce bit...

i dont see how a stigma is good for the uk just because it has a benefit doesnt mean it has a net benefit...

with regard to your examples, i dont think much, but if there are positive aspects with countries that are generally better than the uk (work ethic for example) and this aspect came about through ethically right reasons than sure, said countries have something to teach us...

I'm not saying there's a direct link between driving licences and fertility, I just used it as an example of Saudi Arabia's patriarchal tendencies. But these tendencies in turn reinforce 'traditional' gender roles that may help explain why Islamic nations are more succesful demographically, i.e while their populations are growing many countries in the West are barely sustaining themselves.

[ChampEon]

(Original post by chefdave)
Despite the fact that Islamic countries tend to fare badly when it comes to closing the gender gap can we learn something from Islam in relation to family values? For example Saudi Arabia is quite rightly viewed as a patriarchal nation (woman are forbidden from driving in the Kingdom etc) but while Westerners may look on and declare such practices 'sexist' there's some evidence to suggest their system has it's advantages: Saudi birthrates are nearly twice as high than the UK's and when polled in 2006 80% of the female respondents argued that men and women should be seperated in the workplace, giving the existing regime an overwhelming mandate. Also while the UK has the highest rate of marital breakup in the EU at 1.8 per 1000 people Pakistan enjoys extemely low levels of divorce because of the social stigma they attach to female divorcees, this again may help explain their relatively high fertility rates when compared with the West.

It's not just us Westerners who think Saudi Arabia is a sexist country. The whole world thinks so! Women can drive in almost all other "Islamic" countries e.g. Bangladesh, Pakistan etc. (Saudis are racist too - they can't stand South Asians).
Anyway don't bother trying to learn anything from these so called Islamic countries because there is nothing Islamic about them. They are ruled/governed by dictators and corrupt politicians who conjure up and enforce their own Islamic laws which completely contradict the teachings in the Qur'an. So whilst I agree that divorce rates are ridiculously high in the West, at least our women are given the option to divorce. We should remain as democratic a country as possible. And this is coming from a Muslim.

[cognito_08]

I think I'd rather have a higher divorce rate than have women wanting to leave their husbands but not being able to in fear or recrimination.

[Dmon1Unlimited]

(Original post by chefdave)
I'm not saying there's a direct link between driving licences and fertility, I just used it as an example of Saudi Arabia's patriarchal tendencies. But these tendencies in turn reinforce 'traditional' gender roles that may help explain why Islamic nations are more succesful demographically, i.e while their populations are growing many countries in the West are barely sustaining themselves.

what does sustaining themselves mean? do you mean as in population wise? does having more kids mean you are more successful? since when was there a birthrate problem in the west?

concept wise, if they have positive traits that are not brought about through actions that one would consider sexist or something then teach away... but i dont believe you should incorporate something if it has negative implications... so if you have a benefit but the disadvantage is it rejects equality, it shouldnt be implemented here... whether its to do with human rights or if its to be judged by others as a failure or something due to stigma when theres nothing wrong etc, the cons of a decision must be acknowledged...

if i kill every single person on this planet, then at the end, ive achieved world peace... but this 'benefit' doesnt have a net benefit does it? ive doomed the human race and have practically become a monster of significant scale...net benefit matters

[Idle]

Came in expecting the OP to be in the red rep, left satisfied.

[chefdave]

(Original post by cognito_08)
I think I'd rather have a higher divorce rate than have women wanting to leave their husbands but not being able to in fear or recrimination.

But what about the greater good argument? It's in society's general interest that the family stays together so even if we have to sacrifice a few peripheral rights the net gains still outweight the net costs. Islamic countries clearly take marriage a bit more seriously than Western ones, this is no bad thing.

[ckingalt]

Great, so in Islamic countries people who hate each other stay together due to social stigma and produce more children in a hostile household. Your example does teach us something.

[Idle]

(Original post by chefdave)
But what about the greater good argument? It's in society's general interest that the family stays together so even if we have to sacrifice a few peripheral rights the net gains still outweight the net costs. Islamic countries clearly take marriage a bit more seriously than us in the West, this is no bad thing.

Freedom of choice should prevail.

And in some of those houses I feel sorry for the kids if the parents don't get on, constant arguing and shouting etc...

[Dmon1Unlimited]

(Original post by chefdave)
But what about the greater good argument? It's in society's general interest that the family stays together so even if we have to sacrifice a few peripheral rights the net gains still outweight the net costs. Islamic countries clearly take marriage a bit more seriously than Western ones, this is no bad thing.

with that reasoning, you might as well bring slavery back to... as they can benefit society by cleaning up the streets or something...

[BACTSR2]

It's hard to compare British society to theirs. It's so different. In some cases marriages are more or less forced anyway. I suppose, if you look at it like this, say you're an ugly guy whose scared of women going out with other men or even men from other groups (Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists) and you happen to be in charge, well you end up with a society where that is impossible and women are kind of items to be changed hands in accordance with one's place in society, with their opinion and sexuality being irrelevant.

[OmeletteAuFromage]

Islam has nothing to teach us because it's medieval nonsense.
However rampant feminism is slowly destroying the west and once thing we could borrow from medieval countries like Saudi Arabia are their traditional gender roles.

[chefdave]

(Original post by ckingalt)
Great, so in Islamic countries people who hate each other stay together due to social stigma and produce more children in a hostile household. Your example does teach us something.

All I'm saying is that you're unlikely to get scenes like this on the streets of Yemen:

[BeanofJelly]

(Original post by chefdave)
while Westerners may look on and declare such practices 'sexist'

Why the quotation marks, what's not sexist about it?

Nah - I'd prefer to be able to vote, drive, say no to sex, own my own property, marry and divorce whom I wish - even if such extreme practices results in a loss to my efficiency as some sort of voiceless patriotic baby machine.

How about you become my unpaid slave? It will increase the efficiency of my household!

[Aquinas]

As a Westerner who's lived in Saudi Arabia (Western Compounds), I'm probably better placed than most to say that, yes, Islamic countries could most certainly teach us something about medieval, patriarchal, 'traditional' gender roles to the very very extreme. The reason for this? Well, women are really not at a liberty to do much at all. My mother wasn't allowed in Saudi proper without wearing an abaya, nor, as stated above, was she able to drive. As far as I'm aware also (I was just a child really, but can look back on it now) women's ability to work was incredibly restricted, at least I never saw any in my father's work place - I'm not 100% sure whether women were permitted to work or not but it's pretty clear that their liberties are extremely restricted over there.

The more pertinent question at hand would have to be, then, do we want to accept the values of 'traditional gender roles' in that sense? I'm not sure many women would value them if tradition extended that far.

Traditional gender roles in the way we think of them are somewhat overrated anyway. Having an equal role in household matters seems like a far more healthy way of operating. Women are no longer the sole custodians of the children and the housekeeping, and I think that's fair. If a woman enjoys the traditional role, then that's also fair.

It's 2012 people, keep up.

[blu tack]

(Original post by chefdave)
All I'm saying is that you're unlikely to get scenes like this on the streets of Yemen:

What is actually wrong with scenes like those?
(what's wrong with women being able to do what they like?)