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Do Islamic countries have something to teach us about traditional gender roles?

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    (Original post by Allie J)
    Surely it's better for your country to have higher divorce rates than women living in fear and being forced to stay inside and do what their husband demands (whether that be cook, clean or have child after child) while he lives how he wants to? Is it not better for children to live in a household where there is no shouting or hostility?

    As an intelligent young Western woman, I do not think I would be at all happy trapped in an unhappy, possibly even violent, marriage with more children than I wanted and no job or life of my own. I want to have an amazing career, my own home and money, a good marriage and children when I want them, not when I'm dictated by society and my husband to have them. The world is moving forward and so perhaps there is no longer room for such sexist qualities. Women are becoming more and more equal to men and, while some may be perfectly content with the 'traditional' role in the household, I think it is much better for women and men to be equal to each other. Sexism should not exist in the world, and 'traditional' countries merely encourage it.
    Hahh, and do you know every woman in saudi arabia is in the situation that you've just described? I go saudi arabia often and have spoke to many EDUCATED women, yes educated with happy family lives. Its wrong to generalise.
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    (Original post by Blackburn_Allen)
    Haven't read the other posts due to most people on these boards being downright stupid when it comes to a topic such as this, but I will say this:

    Your vein, and quite frankly, desperate attempt to try and shine a good light on the Islamic culture towards women is shocking. If you want to live in a world, or take place in a culture, that promotes genital mutilation, that promotes forced marriage, that promotes murder of the free thinking women, that promotes underage sex, that prohibits adultery through its constitution and that treats women as second (if not third) class citizens then yes, Islam does have something to teach us. If, however, you have socially evolved from the 7th century and wish to live in a place where both men and women are equal, and free choice comes before family honour then no, Islam doesn't have anything to teach you.

    Monotheism has nothing to teach humanity other than how to die for an unjust cause.

    Islam and gender fairness, now there's an oxymoron.
    Islam and forced marriages you say? Have you done any research? Or read hadith or quran? No i didnt think so

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)."

    Aa'ishah reported that a girl came to her and said, "My father married me to his brother's son in order to raise his social standing, and I did not want this marriage [I was forced into it]." ?Aa'ishah said, "Sit here until the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) comes. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came and she told him about the girl. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sent for her father, then he gave the girl the choice of what to do. She said, "O Messenger of Allaah, I have accepted what my father did, but I wanted to prove something to other women." (Reported by al-Nisaa'i, 3217).

    Volume 7, Book 62, Number 69:
    Narrated Khansa bint Khidam Al-Ansariya:
    that her father gave her in marriage when she was a matron and she disliked that marriage. So she went to Allah's Apostle and he declared that marriage invalid


    Islam doesnt NOT promote forced marriages under any circumstances. Just because you've read a few things in the news about so and so, whats the link with Islam? Since when did any country abide by the laws of Islam completely?
    I hate how you all generalise

    In Islam a woman can vote, earn, keep that money she earns, inherit, marry according to her will, divorce, have custody over her children, educate herself, has the right to be treated equally as men and has the right for sexual satisfaction.
    Please go do some research
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    All I'm saying is that you're unlikely to get scenes like this on the streets of Yemen:

    Attachment 147435
    All we're saying is that you're unlikely to get scenes like this on the streets of london.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV1eODwuU4Y

    ^^ a clip from a film titles 'The stoning of soraya m' <-- true story.
    And it may not be based on a woman in saudi but it is allowed in saudi.
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    (Original post by FatCharlie)
    That was not what I asked. There is a lot of **** that's going on in "the name of God" around the world. My question was what that link had to do with Islam.
    Islam is the dominant religion in most of the countries where the highest concentration of these attacks are.

    Perhaps it is as tenuous a link as saying secularism results in high teenage pregnancy rates, but I think this horrific attitude towards women is common in many countries where contemporary Islam is practiced. Women aren't allowed to drive in Saudi.... lol.
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    (Original post by Rosi M)
    Islam and forced marriages you say? Have you done any research? Or read hadith or quran? No i didnt think so

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    The Prophet said, "A matron should not be given in marriage except after consulting her; and a virgin should not be given in marriage except after her permission." The people asked, "O Allah's Apostle! How can we know her permission?" He said, "Her silence (indicates her permission)."

    Aa'ishah reported that a girl came to her and said, "My father married me to his brother's son in order to raise his social standing, and I did not want this marriage [I was forced into it]." ?Aa'ishah said, "Sit here until the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) comes. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) came and she told him about the girl. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sent for her father, then he gave the girl the choice of what to do. She said, "O Messenger of Allaah, I have accepted what my father did, but I wanted to prove something to other women." (Reported by al-Nisaa'i, 3217).

    Volume 7, Book 62, Number 69:
    Narrated Khansa bint Khidam Al-Ansariya:
    that her father gave her in marriage when she was a matron and she disliked that marriage. So she went to Allah's Apostle and he declared that marriage invalid


    Islam doesnt NOT promote forced marriages under any circumstances. Just because you've read a few things in the news about so and so, whats the link with Islam? Since when did any country abide by the laws of Islam completely?
    I hate how you all generalise

    In Islam a woman can vote, earn, keep that money she earns, inherit, marry according to her will, divorce, have custody over her children, educate herself, has the right to be treated equally as men and has the right for sexual satisfaction.
    Please go do some research

    No she can't. Saying those things only heaps on the insult to the millions of Islamic women worldwide living in fear whilst you sit on your PC, more than likely located in a western country that has a godless constitution, and spout your vile ass-backward sputum that you consider a rebuttal. You act as if my attack was personal on Islam but it should be known that I am against all religions equally; Islam is my main concern because it is the most infamous for its human rights abominations.

    With that in mind, I will entertain your rhetoric because I enjoy debating against the idiotic. Although, before we begin, you must know that nothing you can say will ever make me change my mind- or, in fact, change my right to believe that religion is evil.

    Without quoting numerous Islamic sayings (I will do if you wish me too), it is a well known fact that genital mutilation happens throughout the Islamic world. With constitutions in countries such as Iran that depend almost entirely on the workings of Shariah it is legalising the almost slave-like treatment of women. Are you honestly going to sit there and deny stoning is a common occurrence in Islamic countries? Or forced marriage? Or genital mutilation? Are you going to deny that these things happen or are you going to open your eyes and accept that the workings of Islam are fundamentally poisonous and evil.

    The underlying message behind all religion is apocalyptic, no more so than in Islam. The fundamental nihilists that have managed to warp the very judgement of Islam are to blame for the generalisation than a large proportion of the planets populace believe. Islam has nothing to blame but its self, yet for all the so-called "moderate Muslims" I have yet to see an uprising by them when an abomination occurs in the name of Islam. And, before you deny this, I would like you to answer my question: where was Islam when the stories of the Egyptian Muslims burning coptic Christians alive? Where was the Islamic crusaders after the London bombings? Nowhere. However, the minute a Danish newspaper draws a satirical cartoon thousands start riots on the streets demanding beheadings and murder. That, my friend, is the true face of religion. That is the true face of Islam. Like it or not you are going to have to come round to the idea that, through your belief in a medieval way of life, you have left yourself open to instant judgement for as long as you continue with these "beliefs".

    Oh, inb4 Islamaphobic argument. I don't consider my fear of Islam irrational or uncalled for, therefore my sheer dislike in the religion cannot be regarded as phobic but merely logical.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    Despite the fact that Islamic countries tend to fare badly when it comes to closing the gender gap can we learn something from Islam in relation to family values? For example Saudi Arabia is quite rightly viewed as a patriarchal nation (woman are forbidden from driving in the Kingdom etc) but while Westerners may look on and declare such practices 'sexist' there's some evidence to suggest their system has it's advantages: Saudi birthrates are nearly twice as high than the UK's and when polled in 2006 80% of the female respondents argued that men and women should be seperated in the workplace, giving the existing regime an overwhelming mandate. Also while the UK has the highest rate of marital breakup in the EU at 1.8 per 1000 people Pakistan enjoys extemely low levels of divorce because of the social stigma they attach to female divorcees, this again may help explain their relatively high fertility rates when compared with the West.
    Oh yeah, all us women should be hidden from society, shoved in a kitchen, we don't need education, we are less than human. In fact, why not simply declare all women to be livestock! Then we can be treated as we truly are without all this "human rights" crap! And why should we have a happy marriage, or be able to get out of an abusive one- we're just lucky to be wanted! And yes, of course women should be shunned from society when they leave their husband, the only thing that makes us worth the space we take up is the fact that we can make more men!

    Not only do I despise your mysogynist ideas, but i'm troubled by your logic. Why is it that you see doubled birth rates as beneficial? 7 billion people in the world and increasing-we don't need more! Besides, perhaps it would be more effective to punish the men, but I can't suggest that becasue then I'm being ridiculus aren't I.

    But please excuse my humble opinion, for I am just a woman, and an unmarried one at that, but perhaps one day a man will beat some sense into me.
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    oh, and another thing, Christians can't complain, have you looked at your holy book lately?
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    (Original post by Blackburn_Allen)
    No she can't. Saying those things only heaps on the insult to the millions of Islamic women worldwide living in fear whilst you sit on your PC, more than likely located in a western country that has a godless constitution, and spout your vile ass-backward sputum that you consider a rebuttal. You act as if my attack was personal on Islam but it should be known that I am against all religions equally; Islam is my main concern because it is the most infamous for its human rights abominations.

    With that in mind, I will entertain your rhetoric because I enjoy debating against the idiotic. Although, before we begin, you must know that nothing you can say will ever make me change my mind- or, in fact, change my right to believe that religion is evil.

    Without quoting numerous Islamic sayings (I will do if you wish me too), it is a well known fact that genital mutilation happens throughout the Islamic world. With constitutions in countries such as Iran that depend almost entirely on the workings of Shariah it is legalising the almost slave-like treatment of women. Are you honestly going to sit there and deny stoning is a common occurrence in Islamic countries? Or forced marriage? Or genital mutilation? Are you going to deny that these things happen or are you going to open your eyes and accept that the workings of Islam are fundamentally poisonous and evil.

    The underlying message behind all religion is apocalyptic, no more so than in Islam. The fundamental nihilists that have managed to warp the very judgement of Islam are to blame for the generalisation than a large proportion of the planets populace believe. Islam has nothing to blame but its self, yet for all the so-called "moderate Muslims" I have yet to see an uprising by them when an abomination occurs in the name of Islam. And, before you deny this, I would like you to answer my question: where was Islam when the stories of the Egyptian Muslims burning coptic Christians alive? Where was the Islamic crusaders after the London bombings? Nowhere. However, the minute a Danish newspaper draws a satirical cartoon thousands start riots on the streets demanding beheadings and murder. That, my friend, is the true face of religion. That is the true face of Islam. Like it or not you are going to have to come round to the idea that, through your belief in a medieval way of life, you have left yourself open to instant judgement for as long as you continue with these "beliefs".

    Oh, inb4 Islamaphobic argument. I don't consider my fear of Islam irrational or uncalled for, therefore my sheer dislike in the religion cannot be regarded as phobic but merely logical.
    Haha your post made me laugh

    How very idiotic of you to mix religion with actions of people. Ever heard, look at the religion.. not its people. How can you sit there and come up with the conclusions you have just done simply by observing the actions of others?

    Islam gives those rights to women. I have given you hadiths which clearly show FORCED MARRIAGES ARE NOT ALLOWED IN ISLAM. Now if some people who dominate their own culture and tribunal regulations over religion carry out forced marriages, how is that Islams fault?
    Islam doesnt allow forced marriages. Don't argue with me and sit here telling me forced marriages are allowed. Ive given you direct hadiths which state they are forbidden and people have the right to choose who they marry and can refuse if they wish.
    If women are not treated well in certain countries and are abused by their husband, oppressed and tortured, you can't blame that on Islam nor can you say Islam allows people to do this.
    Islam doesnt. Islam says treat your women well.
    The prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said: "The best out of you is the one who is the best with his wives, and I am the best with my wives".

    Yes, im sat in the UK replying to you but that doesnt mean women are not abused in this country. There will always be people who do this. It has nothing to do with Islam. If it did, if they truly understood the teachings of Islam they wouldnt behave in this way.
    Just because a person is born into a muslim family, raised as a muslim, it doesnt mean they abide by all the rules. Islam has been spread widely and different people in different countries have different ways of thinking and have different cultures. Often, culture is confused with religion.

    About stoning, tell me one thing. If this useless government made the sentences for murderers, rapists etc stricter and harsher, wouldnt the crime rate decrease? We all know how pathetic these sentences are. You murder someone and you get a few years in prison. Tell me one thing, if somebody (god forbid) raped your mother sister wife daughter, what would be the punishment you want for that person?
    How many cases do you hear of fully grown men raping girls as young as 8,9,10. If death isnt the solution to these disgusting people, then tell me what is?

    Im not asking you to follow a religion or start thinking anything of that sort. I want you to understand Islam itself gives women many many many rights. Islam considers women mens equals. Equality does not mean Identical. Men and women are DIFFERENT but EQUAL. Islam gave rights to women many many many years ago before any of these western countries.
    Don't look at the actions of others and immediately think "islam allows this".
    No it doesnt. Not every muslim is a good muslim. There are muslims out there who do what they like and dont abide by the laws of Shariah and that includes treating their women badly.
    If you want to debate with me regarding the rights of women in Islam, go ahead.
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    OK so it's better to be tied to your husband and massively overpopulate the world due to your NO counting for nothing than to live like we do over here. I can really see how having half the population forbidden from leaving the house without someone who effectively owns them would be so much better for society. I bet being raised primarily by someone who has basically no rights and lives in fear of her male relatives leads to an adult population with wonderful mental health.

    Remind me never to date you.

    & for the record you wouldn't want to work with the other gender if you were treated like a commodity by them. I mean really.
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    (Original post by Rosi M)
    Hahh, and do you know every woman in saudi arabia is in the situation that you've just described? I go saudi arabia often and have spoke to many EDUCATED women, yes educated with happy family lives. Its wrong to generalise.
    I certainly do not think that all women are in this situation. I was just expressing my opinion on the topic; 'traditional gender role' is usually where the woman is a housewife and the man goes to work. I was simply saying that I would not like to stay at home all day and I would much rather prefer to have a job and a life and possessions of my own. There is nothing wrong with that.
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    (Original post by Rosi M)
    Haha your post made me laugh

    How very idiotic of you to mix religion with actions of people. Ever heard, look at the religion.. not its people. How can you sit there and come up with the conclusions you have just done simply by observing the actions of others?

    Islam gives those rights to women. I have given you hadiths which clearly show FORCED MARRIAGES ARE NOT ALLOWED IN ISLAM. Now if some people who dominate their own culture and tribunal regulations over religion carry out forced marriages, how is that Islams fault?
    Islam doesnt allow forced marriages. Don't argue with me and sit here telling me forced marriages are allowed. Ive given you direct hadiths which state they are forbidden and people have the right to choose who they marry and can refuse if they wish.
    If women are not treated well in certain countries and are abused by their husband, oppressed and tortured, you can't blame that on Islam nor can you say Islam allows people to do this.
    Islam doesnt. Islam says treat your women well.
    The prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said: "The best out of you is the one who is the best with his wives, and I am the best with my wives".

    Yes, im sat in the UK replying to you but that doesnt mean women are not abused in this country. There will always be people who do this. It has nothing to do with Islam. If it did, if they truly understood the teachings of Islam they wouldnt behave in this way.
    Just because a person is born into a muslim family, raised as a muslim, it doesnt mean they abide by all the rules. Islam has been spread widely and different people in different countries have different ways of thinking and have different cultures. Often, culture is confused with religion.

    About stoning, tell me one thing. If this useless government made the sentences for murderers, rapists etc stricter and harsher, wouldnt the crime rate decrease? We all know how pathetic these sentences are. You murder someone and you get a few years in prison. Tell me one thing, if somebody (god forbid) raped your mother sister wife daughter, what would be the punishment you want for that person?
    How many cases do you hear of fully grown men raping girls as young as 8,9,10. If death isnt the solution to these disgusting people, then tell me what is?

    Im not asking you to follow a religion or start thinking anything of that sort. I want you to understand Islam itself gives women many many many rights. Islam considers women mens equals. Equality does not mean Identical. Men and women are DIFFERENT but EQUAL. Islam gave rights to women many many many years ago before any of these western countries.
    Don't look at the actions of others and immediately think "islam allows this".
    No it doesnt. Not every muslim is a good muslim. There are muslims out there who do what they like and dont abide by the laws of Shariah and that includes treating their women badly.
    If you want to debate with me regarding the rights of women in Islam, go ahead.
    Surah 4.32 for male dominance; surah 2.222 for general sexism. Your argument is invalid.
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    (Original post by FrigidSymphony)
    Surah 4.32 for male dominance; surah 2.222 for general sexism. Your argument is invalid.
    Pfft, pathetic. Thats the best you got?
    Typical haters.. know a few verses from the Quran and thats all you use to justify your points without any knowledge
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    I hear what you are saying Rosi M - about many of the abuses of women coming from a cultural rather then a religious heritage. However, could you tell us why there such unfairness in terms of how women are treated, and why are so many of the worst perpetrators of crimes against women are from countries were most people follow Islam.

    If Islam has men and women as equals, if God views men and women as equal, why do so many men risk the wrath of God, and rape, and do honour killings, beat women, execute female adulterers etc?
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    It's difficult to reconcile egalitarian sentiments with certain worldly realities, including marital/family breakups and the way some young mothers/single parent kids behave in the 21st century aye..

    ..is the answer reversion to rather backwards Muslamic modes of thought and civil governance?- probably not. Quite what the solution would be I do not know..
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    Despite the fact that Islamic countries tend to fare badly when it comes to closing the gender gap can we learn something from Islam in relation to family values? For example Saudi Arabia is quite rightly viewed as a patriarchal nation (woman are forbidden from driving in the Kingdom etc) but while Westerners may look on and declare such practices 'sexist' there's some evidence to suggest their system has it's advantages: Saudi birthrates are nearly twice as high than the UK's and when polled in 2006 80% of the female respondents argued that men and women should be seperated in the workplace, giving the existing regime an overwhelming mandate. Also while the UK has the highest rate of marital breakup in the EU at 1.8 per 1000 people Pakistan enjoys extemely low levels of divorce because of the social stigma they attach to female divorcees, this again may help explain their relatively high fertility rates when compared with the West.
    You think this is a good thing? What is positive about being forced to stay in a marriage because of the 'social stigma' You're a nutter. If a man and woman aren't happy together, they should get divorced and not be looked down upon for doing so. Your whole post is ludacrous, I can't believe people like you actually exist.
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    (Original post by Rosi M)
    Pfft, pathetic. Thats the best you got?
    Typical haters.. know a few verses from the Quran and thats all you use to justify your points without any knowledge
    Assuming that there is in fact no God, and therefore no divine authority behind the Quran, I'm pointing out two verses that have been consistently used by patriarcal dictators and oppressors to subdue women and tarnish them as inferior, even bringing them to self-loathing. Tell me, what do you feel about your holy book telling you that you're filthy and disease-ridden simply because of a natural biological occurrence that makes you a woman?
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    (Original post by sarahthegemini)
    You think this is a good thing? What is positive about being forced to stay in a marriage because of the 'social stigma' You're a nutter. If a man and woman aren't happy together, they should get divorced and not be looked down upon for doing so. Your whole post is ludacrous, I can't believe people like you actually exist.
    its the same retarded reasoning used for status in marriage/how one acts in regards to honour...

    the 'do what we say or you bring shame to our family' bull**** :facepalm:
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    (Original post by sarahthegemini)
    You think this is a good thing? What is positive about being forced to stay in a marriage because of the 'social stigma' You're a nutter. If a man and woman aren't happy together, they should get divorced and not be looked down upon for doing so. Your whole post is ludacrous, I can't believe people like you actually exist.
    But what about the greater good? Ok I accept your point about not trapping people in unhappy marriages, but from society's viewpoint surely it's better for parents to stay together while they're raising children rather than having a raft of single parents that rely on state welfare (as well as all the other ancillary costs such as legal aid, court time for inevitable child custody disputes, the CSA etc etc) Maybe Western society with it's decedent welfare system has made divorce too easy.
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    (Original post by Holmeboy)
    I hear what you are saying Rosi M - about many of the abuses of women coming from a cultural rather then a religious heritage. However, could you tell us why there such unfairness in terms of how women are treated, and why are so many of the worst perpetrators of crimes against women are from countries were most people follow Islam.

    If Islam has men and women as equals, if God views men and women as equal, why do so many men risk the wrath of God, and rape, and do honour killings, beat women, execute female adulterers etc?
    If you were a Muslim and were brought up like in the UK, you can tell the difference between what Islam really is. It's cos of generations and generations of a certain view of how Islam can be interpreted which is basically that Islam approves their culture and traditions which is far from the truth.

    It's disgusting..........but you've also got to realise these people are ignorant as well and think they are always right, I've tried to get rid of culture in my family, which is working. But it's far harder over there, as some of them are idiots and would kill you cos they think culture is ok. In end they will get punished in our faith somehow.
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    Do Islamic countries have something to teach us about traditional gender roles?
    Nothing if we value human progress and women's rights.

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