[PointyElbow]

[QUOTE=Rosi M;37795254]

(Original post by PointyElbow)

Do you know anything at all?
Aisha had started puberty and had matured, her body was physically matured at this age.
Also note, girls in those days physically matured much quicker than girls of today.

It was common, it was a norm, it was SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE in that time for young girls to marry at an early age.
Proof?
Before the prophet Muhammad married Aisha, Aisha had RECEIVED A PROPOSAL

This highlights society in those days.
If it was so abnormal for a girl aged 9 to marry, why did Aisha, Aishas parents including her mother, her sister, her aunts, and other women of that time agree? Why did nobody speak up? If it was so wrong, surely someone would have said something?
WHY DID THEY PREPARE FOR THIS MARRIAGE HAPPILY?

Again this reflects that what we deem as socially acceptable in modern day, 21st century West was completely different to what was socially acceptable then.

If Muhammad was such a strange man for doing this, why is it that this was commonly practised amongst NON MUSLIMS of that time? Including the christians and Jews of Madina? Again, this shows it was a cultural norm. It was accepted. It was normal for a girl to reach the age of 6/7/8/9 and for proposals to come. We may find this difficult to understand and imagine but the same thing will be said about the norms of today in the future.


Girls in those days matured earlier.

Al-Dawoodi said: Aa'ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) was reached physical maturity (at the time when her marriage was consummated)." (Sharh Muslim, 9/206

Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 8, Number 465:
"Narrated 'Aishathe wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet visited us, both in the mornings and evenings.

This hadith clearly shows AISHA HAD REACHED PUBERTY WHILST STILL LIVING WITH HER PARENTS.

Again highlighting how normal it was for girls to marry at that age, Aisha HERSELF says:

"Aisha said, if the little girl reaches nine then she is a woman." (Tirmidhi - Classed Hasan Sahih By Sheikh Albani In: Jami' Sahih Al-Adhkar & Tirmidhi

"Al-Dawudi said:" And Aishah body had been really mature." (Sharh Sahih Muslim, Imam Nawawi


Aisha was physically mature. She was mentally mature. Aisha was no ordinary person. She at the age of 18/19 had become one of the greatest scholars of her time to whom fully grown men would come for advise regarding not only religious matters, but Aisha had excelled in Medicine, poetry, Literature and history.
Tell me, a wife of an oppressor who you are calling Muhammad.. would this person grow up to be such a strong character?
If you marry somebody who abuses and oppresses you, who "beats" you, do you grow up to be strong or weak? Do you grow up hating that person or have nothing but praise for that person?
Of course, you grow up as a weak character. Psychologically you are damaged. Physically you are damaged. And you hate the person who did that to you?
Why in that case did AISHA BECOME ONE OF THE STRONGEST PEOPLE OF HER TIME?

Abu Moosa al-Ash’ari, a very knowledge companion, said, “Whenever a hadith was unclear to us – we the companions of Allah’s Messenger – and we asked Aisha about it, we always gained knwoledge about that hadith from her.”

“If Aisha’s knowledge is compiled and compared to the knowledge of all women, her knowledge will surely excel theirs.”
Al-Hakim said, “One fourth of the rule of Shari’ah was narrated on the authority of Aisha.”

Her marriage with the Prophet Muhammad, is the reason she became one of the leading figures in Islam. The companionship with the Prophet, his love and affection towards her and the knowledge she gained through living with him made her who she was.

You say he beated her?
Would a wife beater show this much love to his wife?

Once the prophet (peace be upon him) was coming out of his house, suddenly he saw a
woman, whose name is Habiba, standing by his door waiting him. He asked her: "what's wrong
with you?"
She said: "I will never be with my husband in the same room anymore!
" Why?", the prophet asked.
- "He beated and insulted me", Habiba said.
- The prophet called her husband, punished him, and divorced her from him, as
she wanted.
- Then, he "gave a speech" in public prohibiting men to beat women saying: "The
best of you, are the best for their families; and I am the best for my family.
Honored are those who give honor to women , and dishonored are those who
dishonor them."


The love between Aisha and Prophet Muhammad

Once Amr ben Alaas came and asked the Prophet (peace be upon him): "Who is your
beloved? The prophet answered: "Aisha".

"The Prophet Mohammed used to take Aisha with him in his travels; on the way he would run with her, and they used to have a race to see who will be faster in
running; the Prophet would slow his running so that Aisha would be the first in the
race, in order to bring happiness to her heart"- Narrated Al Nisai

The Prophet never hit anybody although pagan Arabs used to beat their wives and servants harshly and sometimes till death. Only while fighting for the Allah's cause would the Prophet beat the enemy. He never abused a domestic worker physically or emotionally and neither did he beat any of his wives,' said his wife Aisha. (Muslim)

You said the prophet beat his wives? Aisha herself narrates the character of the Prophet. Never did he beat his wives, any slave or any man. If he beat and oppressed her, why would she say this? This was said after the death of the Prophet Peace be upon him.

Aisha said, "When I used to take shower with prophet Muhammad, he used to tell me, "keep some water for me," but I used to push his hands and say," Keep the water for me." ( Bukhari )

The Prophet was a loving husband. Aisha talked about the times when she enjoyed meals with him. He enjoyed his meals only when she sat next to him. They drank from one cup and he watched where she placed her lips so that he could place his lips on the same area. He ate from a bone after she ate and placed his mouth where she had eaten. She also said that he placed morsels of food into her mouth and she would do the same. (Muslim)

When the Prophet left his house - even as he left to pray in the Mosque - he used to kiss his wife. (Abu Dawud and Tirmidhi)


Please read up. Please talk to some muslims who will enlighten you on the beautiful character of the Prophet Muhammad.
I don't know where you got the "he used to beat her" idea from, but all the hadeeths i have shown you do not look like what a wife beater would do and say.
He was the most loving and caring husband, father and friend.
Please show some respect

I actually swear your thought process is twisted.
You're justifying his, frankly, paedophilic relationship, with - she'd started puberty, and it was the norm.

How does that make it right to have sex with a 9 year old girl?

Does that mean that it's ok to have sex with a 13 yr old girl today, if she's started puberty? No nine year old can consent, no nine year old deserves that - it was abusive and selfish of Mohammed part imo. Honestly, quite despicable.

And you cannot justify it with culture. It does not change the act. If I were to kill someone for being gay for example, hundreds of years ago, it does not change the fact it it is murder and homophobic. Time does not change the fact that it was murder - only knowledge can highlight the true evil behind such acts. You're justifying and defending what is essentially the rape of a child - the removal of her innocence. Dead serious now, people abandon teachings in religion so much, because they are wrong. A whole lot of Christians disregard Leviticus because it is wrong. I don't see why you feel such a strong need to defend him so vehemently, when any outsider can see that marrying and sleeping with a 9 yr old is wrong. Besides, I'm quite sure that she was 6 at the time of getting married - how the hell can a 6 yr old consent to that? Sounds more like a forced marriage to me (ooh).

And she was not an adult. She still had dolls, and the Qu'ran etc says dolls are for CHILDREN.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

You know what, you'd have thought that if Allah inspired Mohammed etc. he's warn him against marrying a child.

And no, he did hit her and he did basically endorse hitting women. You can't cherry pick your quotes and ignore all of the ugly ones.

Book 004, Number 2127:
He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

Book 11, Number 2142
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.

Verse 4:34
As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) leave them alone in beds (and last) beat or separate them (from you)

Or is it ok for Mohammed to endorse hitting women because it was culturally acceptable at the time?

Please, do not try to act like Mohammed was the pinnacle of moral conduct, because he really, really wasn't. Why else would there be such discepancies? You're refusing to even acknowledge these.

[blu tack]

(Original post by Ras17)
The woman has her knickers down to her ankles in a public street. Are you seriously asking what's wrong with that?

Yes. Do you have an answer?

[Ras17]

(Original post by blu tack)
Yes. Do you have an answer?

Well for a starter, public nudity is... illegal

[blu tack]

(Original post by Ras17)
Well for a starter, public nudity is... illegal

She's not nude.

Even if she flashes her bum a bit... so what? There won't be any kids around at that time of night. And besides, illegality doesn't necessarily respond to immorality. Is there anything morally wrong with being nude in public? If so, why?

[Ras17]

(Original post by blu tack)
She's not nude.

Even if she flashes her bum a bit... so what? There won't be any kids around at that time of night. And besides, illegality doesn't necessarily respond to immorality. Is there anything morally wrong with being nude in public? If so, why?

Still illegal. And since morality is subjective, it depends on individual moral reasoning. There are plenty of answers, each inconclusive such as the need to cover up in public as intuition or social evolution. It violates the norms (not always a crime but in this case it is) and you will probably argue that the subjective nature of morality means that in her head it is okay to carry out such actions. The problem with that is that any action can be justifiable by that reasoning.

[Flying Cookie]

(Original post by chefdave)
The women in Saudi seem to be happy with the arrangement, a recent poll showed that most of them don't believe they should be allowed to hold public office and Saudi women have even organised themselves to campaign FOR the driving ban.

Although feminists like yourself believe you're championing an 'enlightened' liberal approach in reality you're every bit as controlling and zealous as those you take issue with: you've just gone in the other direction, i.e suggesting that women should reject the 'shackles' of family life because it's a one way ticket to subjugation and sexism (apparently). Unsurprisingly some of your Middle Eastern counterparts have rejected such PC nonsense, and good for them I say. If the pinnacle of Western feminism is the freedom to get trollied and knickerless in a public place you shouldn't be surprised when the more thoughtful among us question it's merits and reject it for something with a bit more substance.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101994_pf.html

This particular comment, specifically the bit about women dropping their knickers shamefully, brings this to my mind: firstly, the pinnacle of Western society is not that; secondly, the REAL reason behind the generalised opposition to women's sexual freedom as symbolised by them dropping their knickers is the anxiety of people like you regarding women's right to choose exactly what they like - sexually and otherwise. It's the mentality of the sore loser who never gets the girl. Because, honestly, would YOU say no to a woman dropping her knickers for YOU? Didn't think so.

The pinnacle of Western society's approach to eliminating sexism is men and women's equal nature-given ability to stand for exactly what they want, despite, or because, of their sex.

[Rosi M]

[QUOTE=PointyElbow;37805780]

(Original post by Rosi M)

I actually swear your thought process is twisted.
You're justifying his, frankly, paedophilic relationship, with - she'd started puberty, and it was the norm.

How does that make it right to have sex with a 9 year old girl?

Does that mean that it's ok to have sex with a 13 yr old girl today, if she's started puberty? No nine year old can consent, no nine year old deserves that - it was abusive and selfish of Mohammed part imo. Honestly, quite despicable.

And you cannot justify it with culture. It does not change the act. If I were to kill someone for being gay for example, hundreds of years ago, it does not change the fact it it is murder and homophobic. Time does not change the fact that it was murder - only knowledge can highlight the true evil behind such acts. You're justifying and defending what is essentially the rape of a child - the removal of her innocence. Dead serious now, people abandon teachings in religion so much, because they are wrong. A whole lot of Christians disregard Leviticus because it is wrong. I don't see why you feel such a strong need to defend him so vehemently, when any outsider can see that marrying and sleeping with a 9 yr old is wrong. Besides, I'm quite sure that she was 6 at the time of getting married - how the hell can a 6 yr old consent to that? Sounds more like a forced marriage to me (ooh).

And she was not an adult. She still had dolls, and the Qu'ran etc says dolls are for CHILDREN.

Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

You know what, you'd have thought that if Allah inspired Mohammed etc. he's warn him against marrying a child.

And no, he did hit her and he did basically endorse hitting women. You can't cherry pick your quotes and ignore all of the ugly ones.

Book 004, Number 2127:
He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

Book 11, Number 2142
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife.

Verse 4:34
As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) leave them alone in beds (and last) beat or separate them (from you)

Or is it ok for Mohammed to endorse hitting women because it was culturally acceptable at the time?

Please, do not try to act like Mohammed was the pinnacle of moral conduct, because he really, really wasn't. Why else would there be such discepancies? You're refusing to even acknowledge these.

You're telling me to not cherry pick when its you whos copy pasting a few words from a very big hadith? I doubt you have studied authentic books such as Bukhari and i really don't think you know much arabic grammar so its useless for you to quote ENGLISH verses from the quran, and make your own little judgements from this without even bothering to look at the tafseer (analysis) of the hadiths or the verses.
So seriously, don't sit here copy pasting things from your anti-islamic sites and use it to prove your point against a MUSLIM. Its not going to work. You're just embarrassing yourself.

Paedophilia? Do you know the meaning of that term?
“Pedophile: also spelled PEDOPHILIA, psychosexual disorder in which an adult’s arousal and sexual gratification occur primarily through sexual contact with prepubescent children. The typical pedophile is unable to find satisfaction in an adult sexual relationship and may have low self-esteem, seeing sexual activity with a child as less threatening than that with an adult.” Encyclopedia Britannica, 1998

The diagnostic criteria for pedophilia according to American Psychiatric Association:
# Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent intense sexual urges and sexual arousing fantasies involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children.
# The person has acted on these urges, or is markedly distressed by them.

Did the prophet Muhammad fit into ANY of these categories?
A paedophile is unable to find satisfaction in an adult sexual relationship and so he/she takes comfort in a child. Do you know anything at all about the other wives of the prophet and what age they were at marriage?

Khadija bint khawilad 40
Sauda Bint Zama 50
Hafsa Bint Umar bin Khattab 22
Zainab bint Khuzaima 30
Umm-I-Salma bint Abu Umayia 26
Zainab Bint Jahash 38
Juwaeria Bint Harith 20
Umm-I-Habiba bint Abu Sufyan 36
Marya Qibtiya bint shamun 17
Safia bint Hayi bin Akhtab 17
Maimuna bint harith 36

If Muhammad was such a paedophile, then why was he married to women even when the woman was 50 and 40?! The prophet's first FIRST FIRST marriage, he was 25. Very young. Khadija was 40. 15 years OLDER than him. His other wife was 50! His relationship with the woman who was 15 years older than him not only lasted whilst she was alive, but there are several occasions where Muhammad (PBUH) mentioned and praised her to other people. He also regularly sent food and gifts to the friends and family of Khadija. HE ALSO HAD 4 CHILDREN FROM KHADIJA.
If a paedophile is one who cannot find pleasure and satisfaction in an adult, then clearly Muhammad does NOT fit into this category.

Having sexual urges towards PREPUBESCENT is also a paedophile. You're mad and clearly have no clue. Muhammad finalised his marriage with Aisha when she was 9. SHE HAD STARTED PUBERTY AT THIS AGE.

1st HADITH:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet
wrote the (marriage contract) with'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriagewith her while she was nine years old and she remained with himfor nine years (i.e. till his death)

There are many many other hadiths which clearly state she was 9 when she started LIVING with the Prophet. These hadiths are from Bukhari- the most authentic book of Hadiths. So get that straight. She was 9. The marriage contract was arranged at 6. It was decided that once Aisha reaches her puberty she will be married to Muhammad (PBUH). This could have been whenever she started her periods so at 10, 15, 16, 18, 20.. whenever.
Once Aisha did reach puberty, this marriage was finalised and confirmed.

Also, if Muhammad was such a paedophile why would he wait for 3 years? Surely a paedophile would jump at the opportunity. In fact, the FATHER of Aisha had to tell the prophet to finalise the marriage when Aisha had reached puberty.

How can you sit here and decide what is "right" and what is "wrong". You may think marriage and sex is only 'right' once your 18. Somebody else may think no, at 16. Islamically, marriage can only be done once the person has reached the AGE OF PUBERTY and so MATURED. Their body is changing physically and mentally. They are no longer a CHILD. Aisha herself said:

Aisha said: “If the young girl reaches 9 years, then she is a woman.
Hadith no. 1027, Source[101]

AISHA IS DESCRIBING HERSELF HERE. ARE YOU GOING TO TELL HER NO, YOU ARE NOT A WOMAN! YOU ARE A CHILD?
To you maybe somebody is only right for sex once they 18 or whenever. Somebody may not feel ready for sex even at 25. But this is merely an age. Biologically you mature when you reach puberty and so Islam makes it legal to marry at this age. What is wrong in that? RAPE AND FORCED MARRIAGE IS COMPLETELY FORBIDDEN IN ISLAM. Islam doesnt say, once you see a young girl ages 9 go marry. Islam doesnt say a man aged 40/50 MUST marry a girl at that age. & your comparison between this and murder is ridiculous. Murder is taking away somebody's life. If you had said to me raping and abusing girls at that age was culturally ok, i would say the same thing as you. Just becuase it was socially acceptable then, does not make it right. Burying female infants alive before the prophethood was given to Muhammad was completely normal. Nobody did or said anything. NO MUSLIM THINKS THAT WAS OK. IT WAS WRONG AND DISGUSTING. THE QURAN SATES HOW EVIL THIS PRACTISE WAS.
But how is marrying somebody who has reached the age of puberty, taking her permission and the permission of her father and mother, forming a marriage contract with dowry and treating that person as your most beloved.. HOW IS THAT IN ANY WAY COMPARABLE TO MURDER?!?!?!?

Marrying early was a NORM then. Like ive said before, if it was SO wrong why did nobody disagree with this? Why did the mother of Aisha, her father, her aunts and other women of that time not disagree? Most importantly, WHY DID THE ENEMIES OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD NOT USE THIS AGAINST HIM? Im referring to the Jews and christians of that time. WHY DID AISHA HERSELF NEVER EVER MENTION THIS?
Who are you to say after 1400 years that marrying a girl at 9/10 who has by the way reached puberty, how can you say what is right and wrong?! Are you now saying all the people of that time were child abusers and molesters? Are you now saying the non muslims of that time who also practised this were all child abusers? Surely this would be a very ignorant thing to say and it makes no sense. Marrying early was commonly practised not just in Arabia, but amongst other nations many years after the prophet Muhammad's death.
Islam makes it compulsory to take the permission of the girl i.e. forbidding forced marriages. There is a reason why the Prophet finalised the marriage 3 years after it was decided. Aisha had reached puberty, she was mature. She could think and decide whether she was to agree with this marriage or not. If AISHA HERSELF SAYS SHE WAS A WOMAN AT THIS AGE, WHO ARE YOU TO DISAGREE?!

Haha having dolls, playing on swings makes you a child now does it? How many times do you see grown women with teddies hung in their car? With teddies in their bedroom? ARE THEY CHILDREN NOW? My lecturer, hes a male has a small teddy hung on his backpack. YOU DONT MAKE SENSE! You can be 25/30 but still have teddies in your bedroom.


YOURE THE ONE CHERRY PICKING. This is the full hadith! DO YOU EVEN KNOW THE BACKGROUND OF THIS HADITH? No i didnt think so.

Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was ‘A’isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi’. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O ‘A’isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi’ (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them)? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you"

I know what you are referring too. And because you are no expert in arabic grammar, you are taking this hadtih out of context. Often what happens is when arabic is translated into english, the wrong words are used.
Firstly, in the part where the hadith says he struck me on my chest, for "struck", in arabic the term LAHAD is used.
“He struck (lahad) me on the chest which caused me pain.”

What does Lahad mean? It means to push/push away/repel.
The prophet pushed Aisha on the chest (for reasons read the hadith- he didnt just decide to push her).. he pushed her on the chest and this caused her pain. See the difference in "beat me" and "pushed".
'Lahad' is not the word used in Arabic to say "beat" or if you wanted to describe somebody who beats up people, you don't use the word Lahad. It is the same way as me saying "somebody pushed me and it hurt". Does that mean they beat me? Does that mean they inflicted pain and wanted to purposely hurt me? No it doesnt. and note: In english we wouldnt use the word "beat" to describe if somebody pushed you and it caused you pain. You would simply say "i was pushed/he/she pushed me and it hurt". Not "he beat me on my chest and it hurt". Because Aisha was not beaten. The prophet pushed her on her chest.

You need to understand the hadith and not take it out of context.

1- The Prophet, was with ‘Aisha, that night. angel Gabriel came to him and asked to him to move to Baqi’ graveyard.

2- The Prophet went out of the bed and moved to Baqi’.

3- ‘Aisha curious as to where he had done, followed him and once he turned back she hastened before him and was out of breath.

4- When ‘Aisha on being questioned told the Prophet, may Allah bless him, the whole story, he pushed her hard on her chest.

5- Although this pressing of the chest caused ‘Aisha, may Allah bless her, some pain but it was not intended as beating rather, it was only to ward off the wrong thought that had come to her heart. This is clear from the words of the Prophet, may Allah bless him; “Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?”

The prophet used to do this reguarly. It was his habit to push on the chest to cast away an evil thought.

“Ubbay said: There occurred in my mind a sort of denial which did not occur even during the Days of Ignorance. When the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him, saw how I was affected, was affected (by a wrong idea), he struck my chest. I broke into a sweat and felt as if I were looking at Allah in fear.” (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 1356)

“The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him, hit the chest of Umar bin Khattab with his hand three times when he embraced Islam and he said, ‘O Allah remove the malice from his heart and replace it with faith.’” (Mustadrak al-Hakim, Hadith 4492. )

This is something you would only realise if you could see the difference in grammar. This is was usually happens when texts are translated from original form into english. Its commonly occured in the Quran also.
And if Aisha was beaten by the prophet, why would she say this?

“Aisha reported that Allah’s Messenger, may Allah bless him, never beat anyone with his hand, neither a woman nor a servant, but only, in the case when he had been fighting in the cause of Allah …” (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 4296)


The verse of the Quran you are quoting is this

Verse 4:34
As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) leave them alone in beds (and last) beat or separate them (from you)

Again this is the english translated version you are showing me. The word "beat" is used to replace the arabic term here. In english, when we say beat we imagine somebody absolutely bashing up somebody else.
The quran uses the word DARABA.
Daraba is often used in the Quran and also in hadiths. "daraba al-ma' `ala wajhihi"- this is referring to when a person strikes the face with water before performing prayers. The same word "daraba" is used. This is the term used in the Quran also.

"daraba al-ard- to strike the earth" - as in verse 4:94 {When you strike the earth in the cause of Allah} - means to travel.
THIS IS THE SAME WORD USED IN THE VERSE YOU HAVE PICKED OUT AND PUT "BEAT" AS A REPLACEMENT.
The arabic word for beat is not daraba. No arab would use "daraba" to describe an occasion where they have physically beaten somebody. If i was to speak to an arab and tell that person to beat somebody, i would not use "daraba". It just doesnt make sense. and this is the reason, often people like you go copy paste verses from the Quran and say "look Islam says beat up women".

This verse is referring to women who are showing signs of ill-treatment.
The Quran has given a step by step procedure in how to deal properly with such women. Talk to them and give them advise. Explain. If this doesnt work, show no interest sexually.
At this point in a marriage, where the man and woman are not sleeping together.. it is usually at the point of Divorce. Allah has not forbidden divorce, but it is not liked. It is one of the most disliked acts. To avoid the breaking of this marriage, to avoid divorce the man has been given permission to use as a last resort hitting the woman. Quran uses the word "daraba".
So what does this actually mean?
When Ibn Abbas (The prophets cousin) -who was known as the one of the most learned scholars of that time and he dedicated his life to analysing Hadiths and Quran. When he was asked what 'lightly' means he said "the use of a miswaak".
Do you know what a miswaak is? A miswaak is very thin wooden stick the size of your finger used to clean teeth. That is how light it should be IF used.

[PointyElbow]

[QUOTE=Rosi M;37857476]

(Original post by PointyElbow)


You're telling me to not cherry pick when its you whos copy pasting a few words from a very big hadith? I doubt you have studied authentic books such as Bukhari and i really don't think you know much arabic grammar so its useless for you to quote ENGLISH verses from the quran, and make your own little judgements from this without even bothering to look at the tafseer (analysis) of the hadiths or the verses.
So seriously, don't sit here copy pasting things from your anti-islamic sites and use it to prove your point against a MUSLIM. Its not going to work. You're just embarrassing yourself.

Paedophilia? Do you know the meaning of that term?
“Pedophile: also spelled PEDOPHILIA, psychosexual disorder in which an adult’s arousal and sexual gratification occur primarily through sexual contact with prepubescent children. The typical pedophile is unable to find satisfaction in an adult sexual relationship and may have low self-esteem, seeing sexual activity with a child as less threatening than that with an adult.” Encyclopedia Britannica, 1998

The diagnostic criteria for pedophilia according to American Psychiatric Association:
# Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent intense sexual urges and sexual arousing fantasies involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children.
# The person has acted on these urges, or is markedly distressed by them.

Did the prophet Muhammad fit into ANY of these categories?
A paedophile is unable to find satisfaction in an adult sexual relationship and so he/she takes comfort in a child. Do you know anything at all about the other wives of the prophet and what age they were at marriage?

Khadija bint khawilad 40
Sauda Bint Zama 50
Hafsa Bint Umar bin Khattab 22
Zainab bint Khuzaima 30
Umm-I-Salma bint Abu Umayia 26
Zainab Bint Jahash 38
Juwaeria Bint Harith 20
Umm-I-Habiba bint Abu Sufyan 36
Marya Qibtiya bint shamun 17
Safia bint Hayi bin Akhtab 17
Maimuna bint harith 36

If Muhammad was such a paedophile, then why was he married to women even when the woman was 50 and 40?! The prophet's first FIRST FIRST marriage, he was 25. Very young. Khadija was 40. 15 years OLDER than him. His other wife was 50! His relationship with the woman who was 15 years older than him not only lasted whilst she was alive, but there are several occasions where Muhammad (PBUH) mentioned and praised her to other people. He also regularly sent food and gifts to the friends and family of Khadija. HE ALSO HAD 4 CHILDREN FROM KHADIJA.
If a paedophile is one who cannot find pleasure and satisfaction in an adult, then clearly Muhammad does NOT fit into this category.

Having sexual urges towards PREPUBESCENT is also a paedophile. You're mad and clearly have no clue. Muhammad finalised his marriage with Aisha when she was 9. SHE HAD STARTED PUBERTY AT THIS AGE.

1st HADITH:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet
wrote the (marriage contract) with'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriagewith her while she was nine years old and she remained with himfor nine years (i.e. till his death)

There are many many other hadiths which clearly state she was 9 when she started LIVING with the Prophet. These hadiths are from Bukhari- the most authentic book of Hadiths. So get that straight. She was 9. The marriage contract was arranged at 6. It was decided that once Aisha reaches her puberty she will be married to Muhammad (PBUH). This could have been whenever she started her periods so at 10, 15, 16, 18, 20.. whenever.
Once Aisha did reach puberty, this marriage was finalised and confirmed.

Also, if Muhammad was such a paedophile why would he wait for 3 years? Surely a paedophile would jump at the opportunity. In fact, the FATHER of Aisha had to tell the prophet to finalise the marriage when Aisha had reached puberty.

How can you sit here and decide what is "right" and what is "wrong". You may think marriage and sex is only 'right' once your 18. Somebody else may think no, at 16. Islamically, marriage can only be done once the person has reached the AGE OF PUBERTY and so MATURED. Their body is changing physically and mentally. They are no longer a CHILD. Aisha herself said:

Aisha said: “If the young girl reaches 9 years, then she is a woman.
Hadith no. 1027, Source[101]

AISHA IS DESCRIBING HERSELF HERE. ARE YOU GOING TO TELL HER NO, YOU ARE NOT A WOMAN! YOU ARE A CHILD?
To you maybe somebody is only right for sex once they 18 or whenever. Somebody may not feel ready for sex even at 25. But this is merely an age. Biologically you mature when you reach puberty and so Islam makes it legal to marry at this age. What is wrong in that? RAPE AND FORCED MARRIAGE IS COMPLETELY FORBIDDEN IN ISLAM. Islam doesnt say, once you see a young girl ages 9 go marry. Islam doesnt say a man aged 40/50 MUST marry a girl at that age. & your comparison between this and murder is ridiculous. Murder is taking away somebody's life. If you had said to me raping and abusing girls at that age was culturally ok, i would say the same thing as you. Just becuase it was socially acceptable then, does not make it right. Burying female infants alive before the prophethood was given to Muhammad was completely normal. Nobody did or said anything. NO MUSLIM THINKS THAT WAS OK. IT WAS WRONG AND DISGUSTING. THE QURAN SATES HOW EVIL THIS PRACTISE WAS.
But how is marrying somebody who has reached the age of puberty, taking her permission and the permission of her father and mother, forming a marriage contract with dowry and treating that person as your most beloved.. HOW IS THAT IN ANY WAY COMPARABLE TO MURDER?!?!?!?

Marrying early was a NORM then. Like ive said before, if it was SO wrong why did nobody disagree with this? Why did the mother of Aisha, her father, her aunts and other women of that time not disagree? Most importantly, WHY DID THE ENEMIES OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD NOT USE THIS AGAINST HIM? Im referring to the Jews and christians of that time. WHY DID AISHA HERSELF NEVER EVER MENTION THIS?
Who are you to say after 1400 years that marrying a girl at 9/10 who has by the way reached puberty, how can you say what is right and wrong?! Are you now saying all the people of that time were child abusers and molesters? Are you now saying the non muslims of that time who also practised this were all child abusers? Surely this would be a very ignorant thing to say and it makes no sense. Marrying early was commonly practised not just in Arabia, but amongst other nations many years after the prophet Muhammad's death.
Islam makes it compulsory to take the permission of the girl i.e. forbidding forced marriages. There is a reason why the Prophet finalised the marriage 3 years after it was decided. Aisha had reached puberty, she was mature. She could think and decide whether she was to agree with this marriage or not. If AISHA HERSELF SAYS SHE WAS A WOMAN AT THIS AGE, WHO ARE YOU TO DISAGREE?!

Haha having dolls, playing on swings makes you a child now does it? How many times do you see grown women with teddies hung in their car? With teddies in their bedroom? ARE THEY CHILDREN NOW? My lecturer, hes a male has a small teddy hung on his backpack. YOU DONT MAKE SENSE! You can be 25/30 but still have teddies in your bedroom.


YOURE THE ONE CHERRY PICKING. This is the full hadith! DO YOU EVEN KNOW THE BACKGROUND OF THIS HADITH? No i didnt think so.

Muhammad b. Qais said (to the people): Should I not narrate to you (a hadith of the Holy Prophet) on my authority and on the authority of my mother? We thought that he meant the mother who had given him birth. He (Muhammad b. Qais) then reported that it was ‘A’isha who had narrated this: Should I not narrate to you about myself and about the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)? We said: Yes. She said: When it was my turn for Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) to spend the night with me, he turned his side, put on his mantle and took off his shoes and placed them near his feet, and spread the corner of his shawl on his bed and then lay down till he thought that I had gone to sleep. He took hold of his mantle slowly and put on the shoes slowly, and opened the door and went out and then closed it lightly. I covered my head, put on my veil and tightened my waist wrapper, and then went out following his steps till he reached Baqi’. He stood there and he stood for a long time. He then lifted his hands three times, and then returned and I also returned. He hastened his steps and I also hastened my steps. He ran and I too ran. He came (to the house) and I also came (to the house). I, however, preceded him and I entered (the house), and as I lay down in the bed, he (the Holy Prophet) entered the (house), and said: Why is it, O ‘A’isha, that you are out of breath? I said: There is nothing. He said: Tell me or the Subtle and the Aware would inform me. I said: Messenger of Allah, may my father and mother be ransom for you, and then I told him (the whole story). He said: Was it the darkness (of your shadow) that I saw in front of me? I said: Yes. He struck me on the chest which caused me pain, and then said: Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you? She said: Whatsoever the people conceal, Allah will know it. He said: Gabriel came to me when you saw me. He called me and he concealed it from you. I responded to his call, but I too concealed it from you (for he did not come to you), as you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep, and I did not like to awaken you, fearing that you may be frightened. He (Gabriel) said: Your Lord has commanded you to go to the inhabitants of Baqi’ (to those lying in the graves) and beg pardon for them. I said: Messenger of Allah, how should I pray for them (How should I beg forgiveness for them)? He said: Say, Peace be upon the inhabitants of this city (graveyard) from among the Believers and the Muslims, and may Allah have mercy on those who have gone ahead of us, and those who come later on, and we shall, God willing, join you"

I know what you are referring too. And because you are no expert in arabic grammar, you are taking this hadtih out of context. Often what happens is when arabic is translated into english, the wrong words are used.
Firstly, in the part where the hadith says he struck me on my chest, for "struck", in arabic the term LAHAD is used.
“He struck (lahad) me on the chest which caused me pain.”

What does Lahad mean? It means to push/push away/repel.
The prophet pushed Aisha on the chest (for reasons read the hadith- he didnt just decide to push her).. he pushed her on the chest and this caused her pain. See the difference in "beat me" and "pushed".
'Lahad' is not the word used in Arabic to say "beat" or if you wanted to describe somebody who beats up people, you don't use the word Lahad. It is the same way as me saying "somebody pushed me and it hurt". Does that mean they beat me? Does that mean they inflicted pain and wanted to purposely hurt me? No it doesnt. and note: In english we wouldnt use the word "beat" to describe if somebody pushed you and it caused you pain. You would simply say "i was pushed/he/she pushed me and it hurt". Not "he beat me on my chest and it hurt". Because Aisha was not beaten. The prophet pushed her on her chest.

You need to understand the hadith and not take it out of context.

1- The Prophet, was with ‘Aisha, that night. angel Gabriel came to him and asked to him to move to Baqi’ graveyard.

2- The Prophet went out of the bed and moved to Baqi’.

3- ‘Aisha curious as to where he had done, followed him and once he turned back she hastened before him and was out of breath.

4- When ‘Aisha on being questioned told the Prophet, may Allah bless him, the whole story, he pushed her hard on her chest.

5- Although this pressing of the chest caused ‘Aisha, may Allah bless her, some pain but it was not intended as beating rather, it was only to ward off the wrong thought that had come to her heart. This is clear from the words of the Prophet, may Allah bless him; “Did you think that Allah and His Apostle would deal unjustly with you?”

The prophet used to do this reguarly. It was his habit to push on the chest to cast away an evil thought.

“Ubbay said: There occurred in my mind a sort of denial which did not occur even during the Days of Ignorance. When the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him, saw how I was affected, was affected (by a wrong idea), he struck my chest. I broke into a sweat and felt as if I were looking at Allah in fear.” (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 1356)

“The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him, hit the chest of Umar bin Khattab with his hand three times when he embraced Islam and he said, ‘O Allah remove the malice from his heart and replace it with faith.’” (Mustadrak al-Hakim, Hadith 4492. )

This is something you would only realise if you could see the difference in grammar. This is was usually happens when texts are translated from original form into english. Its commonly occured in the Quran also.
And if Aisha was beaten by the prophet, why would she say this?

“Aisha reported that Allah’s Messenger, may Allah bless him, never beat anyone with his hand, neither a woman nor a servant, but only, in the case when he had been fighting in the cause of Allah …” (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 4296)


The verse of the Quran you are quoting is this

Verse 4:34
As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) leave them alone in beds (and last) beat or separate them (from you)

Again this is the english translated version you are showing me. The word "beat" is used to replace the arabic term here. In english, when we say beat we imagine somebody absolutely bashing up somebody else.
The quran uses the word DARABA.
Daraba is often used in the Quran and also in hadiths. "daraba al-ma' `ala wajhihi"- this is referring to when a person strikes the face with water before performing prayers. The same word "daraba" is used. This is the term used in the Quran also.

"daraba al-ard- to strike the earth" - as in verse 4:94 {When you strike the earth in the cause of Allah} - means to travel.
THIS IS THE SAME WORD USED IN THE VERSE YOU HAVE PICKED OUT AND PUT "BEAT" AS A REPLACEMENT.
The arabic word for beat is not daraba. No arab would use "daraba" to describe an occasion where they have physically beaten somebody. If i was to speak to an arab and tell that person to beat somebody, i would not use "daraba". It just doesnt make sense. and this is the reason, often people like you go copy paste verses from the Quran and say "look Islam says beat up women".

This verse is referring to women who are showing signs of ill-treatment.
The Quran has given a step by step procedure in how to deal properly with such women. Talk to them and give them advise. Explain. If this doesnt work, show no interest sexually.
At this point in a marriage, where the man and woman are not sleeping together.. it is usually at the point of Divorce. Allah has not forbidden divorce, but it is not liked. It is one of the most disliked acts. To avoid the breaking of this marriage, to avoid divorce the man has been given permission to use as a last resort hitting the woman. Quran uses the word "daraba".
So what does this actually mean?
When Ibn Abbas (The prophets cousin) -who was known as the one of the most learned scholars of that time and he dedicated his life to analysing Hadiths and Quran. When he was asked what 'lightly' means he said "the use of a miswaak".
Do you know what a miswaak is? A miswaak is very thin wooden stick the size of your finger used to clean teeth. That is how light it should be IF used.

So let me get this straight, you're saying it's okay to marry and have sex with a 9 year old.

Having a period or boobs doesn't make you an adult. It's not some grand event that suddenly endows you with maturity. NO 9 year old is mature or adult. Not now, and not 1500yrs ago. And what is your response then to married people who still abuse children? They're not paedophiles because they have husbands/wives? Being paedophile is arousal over children. Aisha was a child, I don't see how you can justify it, especially considering modern knowledge.

I mean, come ON, he married her at 6, are you saying that that's not in the slight bit expoitative? Are you going to try and tell me that she was an adult when he married her? And she would have only just started puberty really by the age of 9, still a child, she would still have a childlike body, and you're trying to argue that Mohammed sleeping with her was not paedophilic in nature? Not even a smidgen?

And really now, you keep going on about how Mohammed stops evils practises, infanticide etc. Why didn't Allah tell him not a marry a child? The very act is intrinsically evil, regardless of the time period and cultural climate. You wouldn't allow it today, so if Islam was so ahead of its time, why didn't Mohammed put an end to it? Because his 11 other wives weren't enough?

And actually, I did know the background of the hadith, stop getting so angry it just makes your points look less credible.
So Mohammed pushed Aisha and it hurt her and she was then afraid. How is this ok? Would you want your husband to push you? It's controlling and dismissive. Moreover, Mohammed basically said then, that to deal with troublesome women, to show no interest in them, which would make you feel unloved and undesirable, and to splash them with water. Do you not see how dismissive this is? To be treated in such a patronising manner? Do you not see how this could be used to control women who have perfectly valid reasons to be angry? I see no patience or compassion in that, I think it's very, very rude, and that it would ultimately end in the demeaning of women. And you do cherry pick your quotes by the way, when you say x y z about islam, and then neglect to acknowledge the quotes which would make one believe otherwise.

[Rosi M]

[QUOTE=PointyElbow;37860817]

(Original post by Rosi M)

So let me get this straight, you're saying it's okay to marry and have sex with a 9 year old.

Having a period or boobs doesn't make you an adult. It's not some grand event that suddenly endows you with maturity. NO 9 year old is mature or adult. Not now, and not 1500yrs ago. And what is your response then to married people who still abuse children? They're not paedophiles because they have husbands/wives? Being paedophile is arousal over children. Aisha was a child, I don't see how you can justify it, especially considering modern knowledge.

I mean, come ON, he married her at 6, are you saying that that's not in the slight bit expoitative? Are you going to try and tell me that she was an adult when he married her? And she would have only just started puberty really by the age of 9, still a child, she would still have a childlike body, and you're trying to argue that Mohammed sleeping with her was not paedophilic in nature? Not even a smidgen?

And really now, you keep going on about how Mohammed stops evils practises, infanticide etc. Why didn't Allah tell him not a marry a child? The very act is intrinsically evil, regardless of the time period and cultural climate. You wouldn't allow it today, so if Islam was so ahead of its time, why didn't Mohammed put an end to it? Because his 11 other wives weren't enough?

And actually, I did know the background of the hadith, stop getting so angry it just makes your points look less credible.
So Mohammed pushed Aisha and it hurt her and she was then afraid. How is this ok? Would you want your husband to push you? It's controlling and dismissive. Moreover, Mohammed basically said then, that to deal with troublesome women, to show no interest in them, which would make you feel unloved and undesirable, and to splash them with water. Do you not see how dismissive this is? To be treated in such a patronising manner? Do you not see how this could be used to control women who have perfectly valid reasons to be angry? I see no patience or compassion in that, I think it's very, very rude, and that it would ultimately end in the demeaning of women. And you do cherry pick your quotes by the way, when you say x y z about islam, and then neglect to acknowledge the quotes which would make one believe otherwise.

How can you say no 9 year old is mature?! Basing this on 21st century! You should go to certain poor countries and look at the 9/10/11 year olds and how mature they are over there. 10 year olds handling an entire farm and managing animals. The way they speak, behave and think is very mature and completely different to the 10 year olds in this country.
British scholar Colin Turner suggests that such marriages were not seen as improper in historical context, and that individuals in such societies matured at an earlier age than in the modern West.

If Aisha herself says when a girl reaches the age of 9, she is a WOMAN, how can you say after 1400 years "no she was a child". There are many many incidents from the time when Aisha was married to Prophet Muhammad which highlight she was no ordinary 10/11/12/13 etc year old. At such a young age she had become one of the biggest scholars of that time to whom fully grown men would come to and seek advise. Is this the sign of somebody mature or immature?


Let me note, early marriages was not just common in Arabia. They were common everywhere in Asia, Africa. Are you now saying all these people are child abusers and rapists?

Thats not very wise.
Mary was 11/12 and Joseph was 90. Why is this never a point of discussion? & are all these people complete paedophiles, absolutely disgusting and deserve to die?
How can you call Aisha a child when she had reached the age of puberty? Seriously.
Islam doesnt allow, completely forbids marrying and indulging in any form of relationship with 'children' i.e. those who have not reached the age of puberty.



Ive just explained the whole hadith to you, and explained the habit of the Prophet to strike someones chest to GET RID OF AN EVIL THOUGHT.
How is that in any way controlling and dismissive when he did the same to Umar and another companion when both had an evil thought in their mind?
If you maybe read and understand the hadith properly, you'll see Aisha thought Allah and the prophet would deal unjustly with her. And so the prophet got his hand and pushed it on her chest. and said to her "do you think Allah and his prophet would deal unjustly with you?" This caused Aisha some pain and so she narrated this alongside everything else.
Sometimes my brother gives me a "friendly tap" and says hello. But it hurts me! Alot! and i tell him not to do it. He means it in a nice way and says hello. But it causes me some pain when he does it.
Does this mean he is controlling and trying to order me around?
No. It simply means he hurt me unintentionally.

Same in this case. The prophet did this to another companion also. But it didnt cause him any pain. Maybe because he was physically stronger than Aisha? A fully grown man.. it may not hurt him. The same way if my brother did that to another boy, it may not hurt. But it hurts me.
Whats your point?
I understand why you may think he "beat" her because of the wrong english word used. and so i explained the whole grammar to you.
But you still cant seem to understand and just looking for any way to prove your silly point.
He did not BEAT her. Aisha reports herself The prophet "never beat a slave or his wives. He did not beat anyone only except when he was fighting in the cause of Allah".
If Aisha was so abused by the prophet, im asking you this again for the third time, why would she narrate this?
Why would she have nothing but praise for him?
When Aisha was asked after the death of the prophet by other men and women regarding the character of the prophet, why did she never say anything negative? Why always positive?

You make no sense.
The prophet Muhammad was the BEST IN CHARACTER AND CONDUCT.
He was the most well mannered person.

He said, "If I were to be invited to eat trotters of sheep or cows or if they were given to me as gifts I would proudly accept such gestures of goodwill." (Tirmidhi)

The companions of Prophet Muhammad used to stay sitting when he come because they know how he feels bad when they stand for him. (Tirmidhi)

Aisha said, "Prophet Muhammad used to stitch his clothes, milk the goats and help in the chores inside the house.' (Bukhari and Muslim)

Prophet Muhammad was the most humble person; he would not extend his feet while sitting with people out of respect.
He was very merciful and his mercy was not restricted to the human beings, rather, his mercy included the animals and birds as well. If a cat, for example, would come to him he would lower the pot to make it easier for it to drink.
He is Muhammad, who out of humbleness used to sit with the poor, the needy and even the slaves. He never treated anyone with insolence.
Verse 4 of Surat al-Qalam clarified his manners:
"Verily, your manners are distinguished and great."

Some of his Companions described
his manners sayingt
'He was never rough. He never raised his voice in public or used foul language. He did not repay evil with evil; rather, he forgave and
pardoned. He did not hit anyone except in jihad. He did not raise his
hand to hit a servant or wornan. He would not become angry if he was
wronged, nor would he avenge himself. He only became angry
when people transgressed the limits and boundaries of Allah; in that case
he avenged. The Prophet was not given a choice between two matters,
except that he chose the easier of the two, as long as it was not a sinful act.
If that act was a sinful act, he would be the farthest from it. When he
entered his home he was a normal individual, he would clean his
clothes, milk his sheep, and serve himself.'

The Prophet did not speak unless he needed to. He would visit his
Companions, see to their needs, keep them united and not ward them away.

He would not reject or let the beggar leave empty handed;
he would give him what he asked for, or at least say to him a good. word. He
would respect the elder, and was kind to the young and help the one who
was wronged. He always smiled. He was well-mannered and kindd. He was
not severe or harsh-hearted. He never made fun of his Companions, nor was
he miserly. He was the most tolerant of people.



Hadrat Abu Huraira (may Allah be pleased with him) said: the Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) was asked to curse the infidels. He said, "I have not been sent to curse people but as a mercy to all mankind." (Muslim)

Hadrat Anas bin Malik (may Allah be pleased with him) said, "The Holy Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) had the best manners among all the human beings" (Bukhari and Muslim)

He would take permission from a small boy
Hadrat Sahl bin Sa'd Ansari (may Allah be pleased with him) reported that milk was brought to the Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him). He drank it. On his right was a boy and on the left elderly persons. He said to the boy: If you permit, I shall give first to these (on the left). The boy said: No, by Lord, Messenger of Allah, I do not want to let anyone have my share of what is left from your lips. Allah's Messenger (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) then gave it first to him. (Malik)


Maybe you should read up. Do some research with less hate. Because Prophet Muhammad is known as one of the most influential, well mannered and most merciful person to walk this earth, not just by muslims but by MANY NON MUSLIMS. It shows your ignorance when you sit here picking out words from hadiths which you have clearly no knowledge about and ridicule and mock the prophet. At least when explained to you, try showing some decency and maybe grow a few brain cells.

[TieMeUp]

Rosi baby, dearest, my lovely, please stop spamming the **** out of this thread with your supernatural claptrap. And enough already with the colours; it makes you look like a 2nd form ditz who just discovered the existence of marker pens.

(Original post by Rosi M)
How can you say no 9 year old is mature?! Basing this on 21st century! You should go to certain poor countries and look at the 9/10/11 year olds and how mature they are over there. 10 year olds handling an entire farm and managing animals. The way they speak, behave and think is very mature and completely different to the 10 year olds in this country.

Like hell they do. Even the adults in third world countries stumble around like they're semi-retarded.

Maybe you should read up. Do some research with less hate. Because Prophet Muhammad is known as one of the most influential, well mannered and most merciful person to walk this earth, not just by muslims but by MANY NON MUSLIMS.

Bull****; even by dark age standards Mohamed was brutal and barbaric. Even his contemporaries, the first Muslims, made fun of his tendency to have a "revelation" that suited whatever he wanted at that moment, and the Byzantines and Jews wrote about how violent and bloodthirsty he was. I suppose that's why the Muslims never forgave either; they destroyed the Byzantines, and they won't be happy until they do the same to the Jews.

There must be no contemporary records from any source other than Muslims! (or at least, that's the Muslim position)

Anyone with a knowledge of classical literature and philosophy, from the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and Chinese will know that Mohamed was basically a primitive desert warlord.

Edit: Oh, and ****ing a 9 year old is not okay, no matter what sophistry you attempt to wrap it in.

[Rosi M]

(Original post by TieMeUp)
Rosi baby, dearest, my lovely, please stop spamming the **** out of this thread with your supernatural claptrap. And enough already with the colours; it makes you look like a 2nd form ditz who just discovered the existence of marker pens.



Like hell they do. Even the adults in third world countries stumble around like they're semi-retarded.



Bull****; even by dark age standards Mohamed was brutal and barbaric. Even his contemporaries, the first Muslims, made fun of his tendency to have a "revelation" that suited whatever he wanted at that moment, and the Byzantines and Jews wrote about how violent and bloodthirsty he was. I suppose that's why the Muslims never forgave either; they destroyed the Byzantines, and they won't be happy until they do the same to the Jews.

There must be no contemporary records from any source other than Muslims! (or at least, that's the Muslim position)

Anyone with a knowledge of classical literature and philosophy, from the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and Chinese will know that Mohamed was basically a primitive desert warlord.

Edit: Oh, and ****ing a 9 year old is not okay, no matter what sophistry you attempt to wrap it in.

You're so sad. Why are you talking? Didn't i tell you to keep your mouth shut?
Bimbo


Thats the most pathetic thing i've read in a while.
Well of course his enemies will ridicule the revelations he received.
It happened with Isa (jesus) and Musa (Moses). It happens everytime a Prophet received revelations some believed and some mocked them.
What's your point?


Youre the DITZ.
How foolish. Have you never been exposed to non muslim articles? Any non muslim reports regarding the Prophet Muhammad?

This is what one of the most inspiring and respected person Ghandi had to say about the Prophet:
"...I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and his own mission. These, and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every trouble." YOUNG INDIA, 1924

George Bernard Shaw - The Genuine Islam Vol.No.8, 1936.
“I believe if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring much needed peace and happiness.
I have studied him - the man and in my opinion is far from being an anti–Christ. He must be called the Savior of Humanity.
I have prophesied about the faith of Mohammad that it would be acceptable the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today


Montgomery Watt, Mohammad at Mecca, Oxford 1953, p. 52:
"His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement – all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad."

Rev. Bosworth Smith, Mohammed and Mohammadanism,
"He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports."


Don't say non muslims have nothing positive to say about Muhammad (PBUH). You're only embarrassing yourself.


Warlord you say? I don't even know why i reply to ignorant people like you who haven't studied Islam at all. You love wasting my time don't you?
Muhammad encouraged living in Peace. He protected the Jews and Christians. The jews he ordered to kill were the jews WHO BETRAYED THE PROPHET. They gave their word to the prophet before a battle but switched sides.
What happens when you commit treason?!
Pathetic. You need to hear yourself.

Several non muslims simply looked at the prophet and converted to Islam there and then.

This is all from a letter of the Prophet Muhammad to Christians:
“To the followers of the Islam I say: Carry out my command, protect and help the Nazarene nation in this country of ours in their own land. Leave their places of worship in peace; help and assist their chief and their priests when in need of help, be it in the mountains, in the desert, on the sea, or at home. Leave all their possessions alone, be it houses or other property, do not destroy anything of their belongings, the followers of Islam shall not harm or molest any of this nation, because the Nazarenes are my subjects, pay tribute to me and will help the Muslims. No tribute, but what is agreed upon, shall be collected from them, their church buildings shall be left as they are, they shall not be altered, their priests shall be permitted to teach and worship in their own way-the Nazarenes have full liberty of worship in their churches and homes. None of their churches shall be torn down, or altered into a mosque, except by the consent and free will of the Nazarenes. If any one disobeys this command, the anger of God and His Prophet shall be upon him.

“If the Nazarenes wish to build a church, their Muslim neighbors shall help them. This shall be done, because the Christians have obeyed us and have come to us and pleaded for peace and mercy.

“If there be among the Christians a great and learned man the Muslims shall honor him and not be envious of his greatness.

“If any one is unjust and unkind to the Christians he will be guilty of disobeying the Prophet of God.


The prophet Muhammad Allowed jews and christians to worship freely. He gave them freedom to practise their own religion.
You know how us muslims are abused daily by people like you, The prophet forbade that and treated jews and christians with respect.

Umar ibn al-Khattab, the second caliph to lead the Muslims after Muhammad’s death, honoured one of the Prophet’s acts of generosity – Umar set up a permanent stipend for the poor Jewish family the Prophet used to take care of in his lifetime. Another companion, Abdullah ibn Amr, had a sheep slaughtered, and out of concern repeatedly asked his servant “Have you sent some meat as a present to our Jewish neighbour?” Abdullah was highly conscious of emulating Muhammad’s good treatment of his neighbours. He added, “I have heard God’s messenger say ‘Gabriel has repeatedly recommended me to be good to my neighbour until I have thought that he would include him among my heirs’.

"Let it be known, if anyone commits injustice, insults, aggravates, mistreats, or abuses a person of the People of the Book, he will have to answer me on the Day of Judgment."

[ScheduleII]

In general, Christian marriages to young girls were for the security of the family and the couple *did not* have sex until the girl was at least an adolescent. In the first century AD and before, Jewish law required a girl to be 12 and a boy to be 12 1/2 to marry and nearly everyone was married by 18: a 20-year-old who was still single would be considered very out of the ordinary. So this was adolescents having sex with each other, which is human nature, no different to today except that bearing children in the teens was expected and they were intending to stay together for the rest of their lives, while two 13-16 year olds having sex today (without marriage) will usually be very much intending to prevent pregnancy and 99% will not be staying together forever.

Roman law did not recognise adulthood with its full rights until the age of 25, and the status of adolescens was given to 14-24 year olds. The lower figure reflects the approximate age of menarche in girls back then. It was frowned upon for an older person to marry someone in at least the younger adolescens years and definitely not tolerated between adult and child. Greeks did not accept child marriage before mid-puberty either, despite their pederastic practices between men and boys. All these well before Islam, which to me shows that it was so wrong it cannot even claim to be a product of its time.

Paedophilia is abnormal in late adolescent and adult humans, unlike sex with 12/13 year olds into puberty which is not intrinsically disordered from a psychological perspective but culturally taboo in the West due to almost certain exploitation inherent in the difference in development and power between partners, and the fact that postponing parenthood to late teens/20+ is advantageous for one's place in society. So the oft-heard claim in this debate that "everyone could marry at 13 until 1800-1900", while basically true, does not reflect any sort of equivalence with 9-year-old Aisha. In cultures where true paedophilia is commonplace it is usually associated with primitive religion of some sort. As any man of 30 who is mentally normal wouldn't want sex with a 6 year old for sexual pleasure alone, but if he is brought up with myths and rituals that have passed through countless generations and that everyone he knows believes in saying that sex with young virgins secures favours from the gods, he will do so to avoid their wrath. Mystical powers associated with semen and menstrual blood led to a lot of sexual rituals, many incestuous, springing up around people who have just begun puberty and are still children in every way. Islam could actually have lowered the amount of sexual abuse suffered by young people in some areas of the medieval world as it swept these superstitions away, while marriage at 9 was never the norm (although it was often allowed due to the Mohammed example) and more often seen as a special exception between the unique Prophet and a girl who Allah had special plans for, as one would expect given normal human sexuality and there being nothing in the Koran to say you MUST marry very young.

If anyone mentions Mary and Joseph (supposedly 12-13 and 90), the historical records show he was NOT ninety, and he was not intended to have sex with her as it was God's will she be a virgin, so this does not reflect any cultural sexual norm. The medieval Christians portrayed him as 90 or thereabouts because old age in a man was an artistic symbol of great wisdom, and also to make it even more clear that their being betrothed and later married did not imply a sexual relationship and thus disprove her virginity, as a man of that age would almost certainly be impotent. He may have been a late teen, or else an adult in the 30-40 range BUT this would be so a wise and experienced man could help the Mother of God in her ordained task of bringing up the Christ-child on earth.

It really annoyed me when 13-year-old "father" Alfie Patten, who was later shown by DNA to not be a dad, hit the news and the Guardian's article- by sociologist Julian Baggini who should know better- mentioned the "13 and 90" idea on Mary/Joseph as fact then stated that "by today's standards that would be paedophilia", a nasty Christophobic slur with no truth behind it. The Grauniad is well known for its anti-royalist, anti-tradition and anti-God slants. His point was that early teen births were common throughout history and "natural" in human nature, but he believed that due to society's evolution over time, it is still wrong for teenagers to get pregnant in this century as they lose opportunities to finish their childhood and education that centuries of progress have conspired to give them; more widely, that something being "natural" is not any guide to it being right or wrong. I do not fully support this latter view, as an adherent of Natural Law theory, but it does make sense in certain contexts. He could have made that point without a mendacious reference to an important part of the Gospel.

[TieMeUp]

(Original post by Rosi M)
"Let it be known, if anyone commits injustice, insults, aggravates, mistreats, or abuses a person of the People of the Book, he will have to answer me on the Day of Judgment."

We come to the nub of the matter; when it comes down to it, monotheists are terribly frightened and always resort to physical threats.

You must be incredibly stupid if you think that I'd be afraid of a god in whom I have no belief.

[PointyElbow]

[QUOTE=Rosi M;37935868]

(Original post by PointyElbow)


How can you say no 9 year old is mature?! Basing this on 21st century! You should go to certain poor countries and look at the 9/10/11 year olds and how mature they are over there. 10 year olds handling an entire farm and managing animals. The way they speak, behave and think is very mature and completely different to the 10 year olds in this country.
British scholar Colin Turner suggests that such marriages were not seen as improper in historical context, and that individuals in such societies matured at an earlier age than in the modern West.

If Aisha herself says when a girl reaches the age of 9, she is a WOMAN, how can you say after 1400 years "no she was a child". There are many many incidents from the time when Aisha was married to Prophet Muhammad which highlight she was no ordinary 10/11/12/13 etc year old. At such a young age she had become one of the biggest scholars of that time to whom fully grown men would come to and seek advise. Is this the sign of somebody mature or immature?


Let me note, early marriages was not just common in Arabia. They were common everywhere in Asia, Africa. Are you now saying all these people are child abusers and rapists?

Thats not very wise.
Mary was 11/12 and Joseph was 90. Why is this never a point of discussion? & are all these people complete paedophiles, absolutely disgusting and deserve to die?
How can you call Aisha a child when she had reached the age of puberty? Seriously.
Islam doesnt allow, completely forbids marrying and indulging in any form of relationship with 'children' i.e. those who have not reached the age of puberty.



Ive just explained the whole hadith to you, and explained the habit of the Prophet to strike someones chest to GET RID OF AN EVIL THOUGHT.
How is that in any way controlling and dismissive when he did the same to Umar and another companion when both had an evil thought in their mind?
If you maybe read and understand the hadith properly, you'll see Aisha thought Allah and the prophet would deal unjustly with her. And so the prophet got his hand and pushed it on her chest. and said to her "do you think Allah and his prophet would deal unjustly with you?" This caused Aisha some pain and so she narrated this alongside everything else.
Sometimes my brother gives me a "friendly tap" and says hello. But it hurts me! Alot! and i tell him not to do it. He means it in a nice way and says hello. But it causes me some pain when he does it.
Does this mean he is controlling and trying to order me around?
No. It simply means he hurt me unintentionally.

Same in this case. The prophet did this to another companion also. But it didnt cause him any pain. Maybe because he was physically stronger than Aisha? A fully grown man.. it may not hurt him. The same way if my brother did that to another boy, it may not hurt. But it hurts me.
Whats your point?
I understand why you may think he "beat" her because of the wrong english word used. and so i explained the whole grammar to you.
But you still cant seem to understand and just looking for any way to prove your silly point.
He did not BEAT her. Aisha reports herself The prophet "never beat a slave or his wives. He did not beat anyone only except when he was fighting in the cause of Allah".
If Aisha was so abused by the prophet, im asking you this again for the third time, why would she narrate this?
Why would she have nothing but praise for him?
When Aisha was asked after the death of the prophet by other men and women regarding the character of the prophet, why did she never say anything negative? Why always positive?

You make no sense.
The prophet Muhammad was the BEST IN CHARACTER AND CONDUCT.
He was the most well mannered person.

He said, "If I were to be invited to eat trotters of sheep or cows or if they were given to me as gifts I would proudly accept such gestures of goodwill." (Tirmidhi)

The companions of Prophet Muhammad used to stay sitting when he come because they know how he feels bad when they stand for him. (Tirmidhi)

Aisha said, "Prophet Muhammad used to stitch his clothes, milk the goats and help in the chores inside the house.' (Bukhari and Muslim)

Prophet Muhammad was the most humble person; he would not extend his feet while sitting with people out of respect.
He was very merciful and his mercy was not restricted to the human beings, rather, his mercy included the animals and birds as well. If a cat, for example, would come to him he would lower the pot to make it easier for it to drink.
He is Muhammad, who out of humbleness used to sit with the poor, the needy and even the slaves. He never treated anyone with insolence.
Verse 4 of Surat al-Qalam clarified his manners:
"Verily, your manners are distinguished and great."

Some of his Companions described
his manners sayingt
'He was never rough. He never raised his voice in public or used foul language. He did not repay evil with evil; rather, he forgave and
pardoned. He did not hit anyone except in jihad. He did not raise his
hand to hit a servant or wornan. He would not become angry if he was
wronged, nor would he avenge himself. He only became angry
when people transgressed the limits and boundaries of Allah; in that case
he avenged. The Prophet was not given a choice between two matters,
except that he chose the easier of the two, as long as it was not a sinful act.
If that act was a sinful act, he would be the farthest from it. When he
entered his home he was a normal individual, he would clean his
clothes, milk his sheep, and serve himself.'

The Prophet did not speak unless he needed to. He would visit his
Companions, see to their needs, keep them united and not ward them away.

He would not reject or let the beggar leave empty handed;
he would give him what he asked for, or at least say to him a good. word. He
would respect the elder, and was kind to the young and help the one who
was wronged. He always smiled. He was well-mannered and kindd. He was
not severe or harsh-hearted. He never made fun of his Companions, nor was
he miserly. He was the most tolerant of people.



Hadrat Abu Huraira (may Allah be pleased with him) said: the Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) was asked to curse the infidels. He said, "I have not been sent to curse people but as a mercy to all mankind." (Muslim)

Hadrat Anas bin Malik (may Allah be pleased with him) said, "The Holy Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) had the best manners among all the human beings" (Bukhari and Muslim)

He would take permission from a small boy
Hadrat Sahl bin Sa'd Ansari (may Allah be pleased with him) reported that milk was brought to the Prophet (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him). He drank it. On his right was a boy and on the left elderly persons. He said to the boy: If you permit, I shall give first to these (on the left). The boy said: No, by Lord, Messenger of Allah, I do not want to let anyone have my share of what is left from your lips. Allah's Messenger (may Allah's blessings and peace be upon him) then gave it first to him. (Malik)


Maybe you should read up. Do some research with less hate. Because Prophet Muhammad is known as one of the most influential, well mannered and most merciful person to walk this earth, not just by muslims but by MANY NON MUSLIMS. It shows your ignorance when you sit here picking out words from hadiths which you have clearly no knowledge about and ridicule and mock the prophet. At least when explained to you, try showing some decency and maybe grow a few brain cells.

To be honest what you're saying is still ridiculous. If Aisha was a woman cause she had started puberty, then obviously, if 13 year old today is groomed and raped by an adult, that is okay. This is what your logic implies. Do you not see how it is intrinsically evil? Mohammed was no timeless role model. Any sexual relationship with a child in indecent and immoral. I don't see why you cannot even recognise that it was wholly inappropriate given modern knowledge. And seriously, would you push a child like that? It's entirely dismissive.

Mohammed was no shining example. He was violent and took a child bride (please don't try and tell me that a 6/yo was consenting and mature). Your logic is twisted and you're making a fool of yourself.

[Aconcernedparent]

I don't think any religious state has something to teach us about gender roles, regardless of which religion.
I can say I prefer the gender roles in France over those in Scandinavia - as men are allowed to men and women are allowed to be women. Feminine and masculine qualities are appreciated and they acknowledge that men and women are different. So certain cultures within modern countries may have things to teach the UK - but Islamic countries, no.

[Rosi M]

(Original post by TieMeUp)
We come to the nub of the matter; when it comes down to it, monotheists are terribly frightened and always resort to physical threats.

You must be incredibly stupid if you think that I'd be afraid of a god in whom I have no belief.

How stupid are you?
This is a saying of the Prophet Muhammad to muslims. He is telling the muslims to respect the "people of the book" i.e. christians and the jews who at that time lived alongside the muslims in arabia.
You're having a rant about how Muhammad (PBUH) treated the jews.
You know nothing. If you had studied history, you would know the respect he gave to the jews and christians.
He stood up when a jewish funeral was passing by. When asked by his companions why he stood up, he said "is he not a human?"

I dont even know why i bother replying to people like you. Making me waste my time. I like discussing with people who have knowledge.
Not the ignorant

[Rosi M]

[QUOTE=PointyElbow;37962905]

(Original post by Rosi M)

To be honest what you're saying is still ridiculous. If Aisha was a woman cause she had started puberty, then obviously, if 13 year old today is groomed and raped by an adult, that is okay. This is what your logic implies. Do you not see how it is intrinsically evil? Mohammed was no timeless role model. Any sexual relationship with a child in indecent and immoral. I don't see why you cannot even recognise that it was wholly inappropriate given modern knowledge. And seriously, would you push a child like that? It's entirely dismissive.

Mohammed was no shining example. He was violent and took a child bride (please don't try and tell me that a 6/yo was consenting and mature). Your logic is twisted and you're making a fool of yourself.

Why oh why do you compare a marriage to GROOMING and RAPE!?

Muhammad with the permission of Aisha, her mother, her father, with a dowry he married her. He treated her with respect and care.
Of course grooming and raping a 13 year old isn't ok! Grooming and raping a 25 year old isn't ok either.
What is your point?

Why is it so hard for you to look at this through a cultural perspective? We are talking back 1400 years ago. Their norms were different. Any high level non-muslim professor at Oxford will tell you that.
Im asking you again, are you calling the whole of arabia and other nations 'evil'?

NINE. Not 6. This marriage was finalised at nine. Aisha was asked again. She confirmed and gave consent. The Prophet waited three years so Aisha could mature enough to make the decision.
Aisha herself says she was a woman at the age of nine.

If Muhammad (PBUH) was no role model, why is Islam the fastest growing religion today? How would an Orphan of Arabia, with no wealth manage to attract thousands and thousands of non muslims?
Surely an oppressor, an evil and violent man would be hated by many. Why did it take non-muslims simply one look and that was enough for them to convert to Islam?

How on earth was Muhammad (PBUH) 'violent'?

Violent: Using or involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something

a) He never beat a servant
b) He never beat a child
c) He never beat a woman (SAYS AISHA HERSELF)
d) He never beat or abused an animal.

If Muhammad (PBUH) was so evil, why was he so respected even amongst the non-muslims of that time?!

He was so trustworthy that even his enemies would not give their posessions to anyone else to guard them. They gave their wealth to him to keep when they would travel. When they returned, they would find their belongings safeguarded with him

Muhammad was known as "AL AMIN" (The faithful) and "AL SADIQ" (The truthful). He was given these two titles by NON MUSLIMS.

It used to be that a woman would wait, every morning, for the prophet to pass under her window. She would try every morning to throw her garbage from the window on him. The prophet never told anyone about this. One morning, he noticed she was not there. He inquired about her and was told that she was ill that day. So he went to visit her. When she saw him she said: "So, you have come to take your revenge on me". He said: "No, but God has commanded us to visit the sick". There and then she believed.

One evening a Jew who had given a loan to the Prophet came to Muhammad and demanded his loan back. He shook the Prophet and was harsh with him. The Prophet said that he did not have the loan amount yet and that it was still early for the payback. Then he asked the man if he would wait a while and be patient. The man refused and said that he would not leave Muhammad's side until he was paid back. So the prophet sat with him - all night - in the mosque. In the morning, when everyone came for the morning prayer, they were surprised to see the prophet sitting with this stranger. After the prayer they asked him about this man. the Prophet explained the situation as if he were sitting with a guest. Then the Jew said: "Oh Messenger of God. I swear by God that I did not come for my money. I only wanted to see if you fit the description of the final Prophet in the Torah - that he is gentle and kind even to those who are harsh. And I have found the description to be true - in you". So the man entered Islam.

[Rosi M]

(Original post by Aconcernedparent)
I don't think any religious state has something to teach us about gender roles, regardless of which religion.
I can say I prefer the gender roles in France over those in Scandinavia - as men are allowed to men and women are allowed to be women. Feminine and masculine qualities are appreciated and they acknowledge that men and women are different. So certain cultures within modern countries may have things to teach the UK - but Islamic countries, no.

Islam acknowledges this. Men and women are equal but DIFFERENT.

Unlike the west where all you hear is "if the man can do this so can the woman. if the man can do this, why cant the woman"

[PointyElbow]

[QUOTE=Rosi M;37969944]

(Original post by PointyElbow)


Why oh why do you compare a marriage to GROOMING and RAPE!?

Muhammad with the permission of Aisha, her mother, her father, with a dowry he married her. He treated her with respect and care.
Of course grooming and raping a 13 year old isn't ok! Grooming and raping a 25 year old isn't ok either.
What is your point?

Why is it so hard for you to look at this through a cultural perspective? We are talking back 1400 years ago. Their norms were different. Any high level non-muslim professor at Oxford will tell you that.
Im asking you again, are you calling the whole of arabia and other nations 'evil'?

NINE. Not 6. This marriage was finalised at nine. Aisha was asked again. She confirmed and gave consent. The Prophet waited three years so Aisha could mature enough to make the decision.
Aisha herself says she was a woman at the age of nine.

If Muhammad (PBUH) was no role model, why is Islam the fastest growing religion today? How would an Orphan of Arabia, with no wealth manage to attract thousands and thousands of non muslims?
Surely an oppressor, an evil and violent man would be hated by many. Why did it take non-muslims simply one look and that was enough for them to convert to Islam?

How on earth was Muhammad (PBUH) 'violent'?

Violent: Using or involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something

a) He never beat a servant
b) He never beat a child
c) He never beat a woman (SAYS AISHA HERSELF)
d) He never beat or abused an animal.

If Muhammad (PBUH) was so evil, why was he so respected even amongst the non-muslims of that time?!

He was so trustworthy that even his enemies would not give their posessions to anyone else to guard them. They gave their wealth to him to keep when they would travel. When they returned, they would find their belongings safeguarded with him

Muhammad was known as "AL AMIN" (The faithful) and "AL SADIQ" (The truthful). He was given these two titles by NON MUSLIMS.

It used to be that a woman would wait, every morning, for the prophet to pass under her window. She would try every morning to throw her garbage from the window on him. The prophet never told anyone about this. One morning, he noticed she was not there. He inquired about her and was told that she was ill that day. So he went to visit her. When she saw him she said: "So, you have come to take your revenge on me". He said: "No, but God has commanded us to visit the sick". There and then she believed.

One evening a Jew who had given a loan to the Prophet came to Muhammad and demanded his loan back. He shook the Prophet and was harsh with him. The Prophet said that he did not have the loan amount yet and that it was still early for the payback. Then he asked the man if he would wait a while and be patient. The man refused and said that he would not leave Muhammad's side until he was paid back. So the prophet sat with him - all night - in the mosque. In the morning, when everyone came for the morning prayer, they were surprised to see the prophet sitting with this stranger. After the prayer they asked him about this man. the Prophet explained the situation as if he were sitting with a guest. Then the Jew said: "Oh Messenger of God. I swear by God that I did not come for my money. I only wanted to see if you fit the description of the final Prophet in the Torah - that he is gentle and kind even to those who are harsh. And I have found the description to be true - in you". So the man entered Islam.

Because I would equate that relationship with modern day grooming and rape. Child marriage is evil, sleeping with a 9 yo is evil. The core of the issue, is that you're saying that it was okay to have sex with a minor, so long as she had started puberty. Thus, by your logic it is ok to have sex with a 13 yo today for example, so long as she had started puberty. Is this what you're saying? If Mohammed was so enlightened, why didn't Allah tell him that child marriage is wrong? Could he not control his earthly desires?

Married at 6 consummated at 9. Doesn't change the fact that he married a child, she was so young, I mean come on, he had kids himself. It's expoitation, frankly. And yes, it was evil, the action is evil, thus the people who engaged in it were morally questionable. It's like saying, modern day honour killings or forced marriages are ok because in some cultures people will support them. It still doesn't change the act.

And there is plenty in the quaran to show that he was violent. Islam is submission. You must submit to god, there is little room for non believers, back in Mohammed's day it was often live under Muslim rule or suffer the consequences. And I think that when you're being raided etc by a warlord, intimidation is a pretty big persuader. Also, indoctrination.
Honestly, your arguments seem to be fundamentally wrong to me, and no amount of positive quotes will cover the negative ones. Mohammed was no timeless role model, and trying to argue otherwise and justify frankly sickening acts just makes you seem wilfully ignorant.

[Aconcernedparent]

(Original post by Rosi M)
Islam acknowledges this. Men and women are equal but DIFFERENT.

Unlike the west where all you hear is "if the man can do this so can the woman. if the man can do this, why cant the woman"

The "west" does not feel like that. Some countries do. Just because Islam acknowledges it, doesn't mean an Islam mindset is good for Britain though. I'd rather have none of it than all of it.