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2 British Soldiers shot dead by Afghan police

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    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...an-police.html

    A Royal Air Force airman and a soldier from 1st Battalion Welsh Guards were killed yesterday in the Lashkar Gah district of Helmand province.
    They were providing security for a meeting with local officials at a patrol base, the MoD said. Next of kin have been informed.
    The incident take the number of deaths of British servicemen and women in Afghanistan since 2001 to 414.
    An International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) spokesman said the attack was conducted by two people wearing Afghan Police uniforms.
    One is on the run and the other was killed when forces returned fire, the spokesman said.

    Eighteen Nato service personnel have ben killed in Afghanistan this month.
    The incident is the latest in a string of "green on blue" attacks in which members of the Afghan security forces have appeared to have opened fire on international allies.
    In March, Sergeant Luke Taylor, of the Royal Marines, and Lance Corporal Michael Foley, of the Adjutant General's Corps (Staff and Personnel Support) were shot dead by an Afghan soldier at the entrance to the UK headquarters in Helmand province.
    Five British soldiers were killed by a rogue Afghan policeman in November 2009. The gunman opened fire on the men in a military compound in Nad e-Ali before fleeing. The Taliban later claimed responsibility.
    The victims were Warrant Officer Class 1 Darren Chant, 40, from Walthamstow, London, Sergeant Matthew Telford, 37, from Grimsby, and Guardsman Jimmy Major, 18, also from Grimsby, all members of 1st Battalion The Grenadier Guards. Royal Military Policemen Corporal Steven Boote, 22, from Birkenhead, and Corporal Nicholas Webster-Smith, 24, from Brackley, Northamptonshire, were also killed.
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    You have copied and pasted an article from the Telegraph, what do you want to discuss about it?
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    414 dead British soldiers, costs of £18bn, our "allies" are turning their guns on us and the Taliban is stronger than ever according to the Pentagon. I'd say we've lost the war, it's time to get out.
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    (Original post by Ups7)
    414 dead British soldiers, costs of £18bn and the Taliban is stronger than ever according to the Pentagon. I'd say we've lost the war, it's time to get out.
    Agreed.
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    I find this kind of event really disappointing. It seems that despite much progress (look at the female school attendance figures for an example of progress) it is events like this that can cause a real setback. ISAF are focussed on mentoring the ANA and ANP to allow them to fully take over the policing and security operation within the next couple of years.

    Unfortunately when a situation such as this occurs of a green-on-blue the distrust that is developed between ISAF and the ANA/ANP is even more damaging than the tragic loss of life of these soldiers. At this early stage the cause of the incident and motives of the gunmen is unknown and so conclusions should not be drawn on whether this was Taliban infiltration or some kind of grievance against the soldiers in question.

    I find it interesting that the view of the general public is opposed to the view of the military personnel that I have spoken to. Almost universally the military seem to feel that there is a reason and purpose to the mission and know what they want to achieve. Of those that have done multiple tours they have said that there is definite progress that can be seen in their later tours which was not present when they first went to Afg.
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    (Original post by js374)
    You have copied and pasted an article from the Telegraph, what do you want to discuss about it?
    Sorry, the discussion would be about the impact this will have on inter community relations in the UK, what with tensions rising and this distrust which will grow over the Afghan army attacking NATO.
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    (Original post by js374)
    I find this kind of event really disappointing. It seems that despite much progress (look at the female school attendance figures for an example of progress) it is events like this that can cause a real setback. ISAF are focussed on mentoring the ANA and ANP to allow them to fully take over the policing and security operation within the next couple of years.

    Unfortunately when a situation such as this occurs of a green-on-blue the distrust that is developed between ISAF and the ANA/ANP is even more damaging than the tragic loss of life of these soldiers. At this early stage the cause of the incident and motives of the gunmen is unknown and so conclusions should not be drawn on whether this was Taliban infiltration or some kind of grievance against the soldiers in question.

    I find it interesting that the view of the general public is opposed to the view of the military personnel that I have spoken to. Almost universally the military seem to feel that there is a reason and purpose to the mission and know what they want to achieve. Of those that have done multiple tours they have said that there is definite progress that can be seen in their later tours which was not present when they first went to Afg.
    This is what I wished to discuss, the setbacks it will cause with regards to progress with Afghanistan.

    I can see it furthering hate for Afghans and their allies/muslims etc within the British community.
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    These incidents are worse than they look.

    Not only have two servicemen been killed in an incredibly cowardly way, but if I was in Afghanistan now as a soldier I would be completely unable to trust the 'friendly' Afghan forces, thus making NATO-Afghan cooperation very, very hard.
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    If there's going to be any peace talks, it'll be on Taliban's terms.
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    If I was a british soldier I'd just shoot every afghan holding a gun. None of them are trustworthy and just waiting to shoot you in the back.
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    Or alternatively the ISAF hierarchy could try to encourage integration between all the national forces under its command. Its not every soldier or police officer that commits these crimes, it is usually a disgruntled serviceman unhappy with his situation and feeling the need to lash out or a mole, a member of the taliban or taliban sympathizer who joined with the intention of planning a strike.

    Simple things like speaking some basic phrases of Pashtu or Dari, having a little cultural understanding and just talking to the local national forces can have a very positive effect.

    Its good to get a rapport going with the local forces, we used to play vollyball and football with them and share some duties that forced us to interact.

    I was lucky enough to be enrolled on a Pashtu course before i went over and it helped a lot, i got on very well with all the Afghan interpreters and every ANA soldier i met, little things like taking an hour out of my own time to locate some nails and help put a roof back on the FOB mosque, ensuring at least one of the power supply cables for leisure use went to their part of the camp, when i brought a drink i got one for the ANA guys aswell, not just the Brits or just talking to them, learning their names and having little conversations its all beneficial for 2 reasons.

    First they get to know you and you get to know them, it means they're more likely to tell you things when your on patrol, usually they just shout to each other, but once they got to know me they would pass information on to me as well which i could then pass on to the rest of the British men on the patrol.

    Second, if there is a bad egg you can sense them out, working with the ANP i did come across some drug use and discussed it with am interpreter before i took it to the chain of command because you have to understand the group you are dealing with, the ANP is a very different organization to the ANA and the professionalism of the ANP can vary from village to village.



    What i felt when working with the ANA is that they were a fledgling Army eager to prove themselves, one guy, he was in his 40's and had 2 sons also in the ANA would always make jokes about how we didn't kill enough taliban with our good rifles and that if we gave him our rifle for a day he would kill 100 taliban.

    The ANP was a different story, the ones i met never wore full uniform, if they wore any uniform at all, they were highly unprofessional and seemed to resent being told what to do or instructed on anything, there was one lad who did seem keen but he also seemed to bare the brunt of all the work due to his willingness :/

    I don't think they're ready yet, but the ANA is getting there, personally i would scrap the ANP.
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    I think I'm going to have to agree with Nick Griffin that we may as well dump Afghanistan. At least we are coming out soon.
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    If the children of the members of the cabinet were involved in this pointless bloodbath we would be withdrawn by next week.
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    Insert illogical question time argument here that because of this it means we should stay to 'finish the job'.

    Dumb politicians.
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    It is ridiculous that we can say this war will be over in 2014. what will have changed for the better by then? why is it taking so long to 'train' the Afghan army? Every report just puts off the time when they will be 'ready' another 2 or 3 years away. Who is training the Taliban fighters? How come they manage to fend off the incredibly expensive war machine of the most powerful military in the world? We entered the other side of the looking glass when we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq and are trapped there because we keep electing people who seem to like that world.

    Seeing the world through right-wing pro-Israel lenses has distorted our view of enemies and allies as well. We lost Afganistan the day we decided Saudi Arabia (creator of the Taliban) was a western ally and Iran (backer of the Northern Alliance) was our enemy. America, and Nato, could have been more successful in Afganistan had they enlisted the help of Iran. Iran is the only country who has actually been able to wage successful military campaigns in Afganistan. It also shares a language with upper class Afghans. Were it not for Iran's backing of the Northern Alliance, all Afganistan would have been taken over by the Taliban. They helped us in 2001 in Afghan, Bush was so dumb and arrogant we shunned them later on..shame.
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    (Original post by Cannotbelieveit)
    These incidents are worse than they look.

    Not only have two servicemen been killed in an incredibly cowardly way, but if I was in Afghanistan now as a soldier I would be completely unable to trust the 'friendly' Afghan forces, thus making NATO-Afghan cooperation very, very hard.
    I am in afghanistan now as a soldier and those guys who died yesterday were at the same place as me. RIP lads, this kind of thing is happening more and more often now I dont trust any of them tbh
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    wtf ^^
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    (Original post by OmeletteAuFromage)
    If I was a british soldier I'd just shoot every afghan holding a gun. None of them are trustworthy and just waiting to shoot you in the back.
    I want to punch people like you in the face. But then I realize I don't believe in violence and calm myself down again. Quite happy you never became a solider. Thank you for that, you'd most probably managed to make the whole conflict a lot more complicated than it already is.
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    (Original post by Cyanohydrin)
    wtf ^^
    ??
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    (Original post by OmeletteAuFromage)
    If I was a british soldier I'd just shoot every afghan holding a gun. None of them are trustworthy and just waiting to shoot you in the back.
    That's going to be very productive...

    Remember a certain Robert Bales?

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Updated: May 14, 2012
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