[Carecup]

(Original post by Guru Jason)
In theory, I would love all these big businesses to pay all of the tax they should but making them pay is just going to mean they take their business elsewhere. They big businesses could probably afford to back out the market for a while damaging us.

I'm certain that if we chased them for the taxes that they have to pay they will cut all UK operations and refuse to sell to one of the biggest and richest markets in the world.

[oo00oo]

(Original post by That Bearded Man)
You said "and who'se fault is it that there are so few jobs...then you referred to other immigrants or those on JSA, I'm unsure which" so either you're very anti-immigration, a separate argument, or you resent people on JSA for stealing jobs, even though that in itself makes no sense.

Actually I was talking about the government - idiot.

i.e. we pay taxes in the hopes that our government will use them to keep the country in an economically stable position, and what do we end up with? Well, you can see it for yourself.

So not only do they waste our taxes and get our country in a rut, they then pretend that they're being loyal and gracious by giving us JSA, which is going to be just a tiny fraction of whatever we paid in in the first place, for most people.

What a nonsense that is.

Okay, for a student earning "tonnes" is an excellent achievement, however in the event of falling down the stairs or being involved in an accident, how do you plan on supporting yourself?

Most of my methods of making money are borne of intellectual skills - some are manual skills, yes, but most are intellectual. Should I become unable to use those intellectual skills due to some brain injury or locked-in syndrome, I don't want care, I want to die.

Also your economic plan makes no sense, what happens if you build a hospital or a road gets damaged or a new airport is required?

I'm sorry, I don't know what you're getting at?

If there is money to be made out of something then somebody will invest in it. I.e. if medical care was privatised, then somebody wishing to provide medical services in exchange for profit will invest by building a hospital. Same goes for roads and airports.

It's precisely the same system that we have now - we will spend our money and in return we will get goods and services. The only differences is that you decide what services and goods you want to pay for, and you go get them directly, meaning that the inefficient and money/time-consuming middle-man (i.e. the government) is cut out of the question.

So the consumer gets higher quality goods at a better price and receives them more efficiently. The provider gains a profit without being taxed to the heavens, and both leave the transaction mutually satisfied.

Also, if there's more people looking for jobs than available jobs, how can you sit there bamboozled by people's inability to get a job?

The fact that we have a situation is a combination of people not preparing for a downturn by learning valuable and sought-after skills and becoming properly educated and useless, and the government frittering away the money that it coerced out of us and leaving the economy in the bin like a soiled nappy.

[That Bearded Man]

(Original post by oo00oo)
Actually I was talking about the government - idiot.

i.e. we pay taxes in the hopes that our government will use them to keep the country in an economically stable position, and what do we end up with? Well, you can see it for yourself.

So not only do they waste our taxes and get our country in a rut, they then pretend that they're being loyal and gracious by giving us JSA, which is going to be just a tiny fraction of whatever we paid in in the first place, for most people.

What a nonsense that is.



Most of my methods of making money are borne of intellectual skills - some are manual skills, yes, but most are intellectual. Should I become unable to use those intellectual skills due to some brain injury or locked-in syndrome, I don't want care, I want to die.



I'm sorry, I don't know what you're getting at?

If there is money to be made out of something then somebody will invest in it. I.e. if medical care was privatised, then somebody wishing to provide medical services in exchange for profit will invest by building a hospital. Same goes for roads and airports.

It's precisely the same system that we have now - we will spend our money and in return we will get goods and services. The only differences is that you decide what services and goods you want to pay for, and you go get them directly, meaning that the inefficient and money/time-consuming middle-man (i.e. the government) is cut out of the question.

So the consumer gets higher quality goods at a better price and receives them more efficiently. The provider gains a profit without being taxed to the heavens, and both leave the transaction mutually satisfied.



The fact that we have a situation is a combination of people not preparing for a downturn by learning valuable and sought-after skills and becoming properly educated and useless, and the government frittering away the money that it coerced out of us and leaving the economy in the bin like a soiled nappy.

God help the universe if you ever get any form of power

[Stiff Little Fingers]

(Original post by oo00oo)
Actually I was talking about the government - idiot.

i.e. we pay taxes in the hopes that our government will use them to keep the country in an economically stable position, and what do we end up with? Well, you can see it for yourself.

So not only do they waste our taxes and get our country in a rut, they then pretend that they're being loyal and gracious by giving us JSA, which is going to be just a tiny fraction of whatever we paid in in the first place, for most people.

What a nonsense that is.

Well, except we pay taxes for the government to use our money to give us a good standard of life, supplying us with health care, a police force, good sanitation, a military to protect ourselves (even if that has gone well off it's actual purpose and instead is run to keep us on top by destroying other countries) amongst others.

And most importantly, the availability of these services to us is not dependent on what we're earning at the time. It's not a case of, as you seem to desire, the moment you end up in a rough patch, you're completely useless and can just die for all it's worth.

Most of my methods of making money are borne of intellectual skills - some are manual skills, yes, but most are intellectual. Should I become unable to use those intellectual skills due to some brain injury or locked-in syndrome, I don't want care, I want to die.

Right... Do you think that makes you immune to losing work and being unable to make money? If so, may I suggest pulling yourself out of this delusion in which you live.

I'm sorry, I don't know what you're getting at?

If there is money to be made out of something then somebody will invest in it. I.e. if medical care was privatised, then somebody wishing to provide medical services in exchange for profit will invest by building a hospital. Same goes for roads and airports.

It's precisely the same system that we have now - we will spend our money and in return we will get goods and services. The only differences is that you decide what services and goods you want to pay for, and you go get them directly, meaning that the inefficient and money/time-consuming middle-man (i.e. the government) is cut out of the question.

So the consumer gets higher quality goods at a better price and receives them more efficiently. The provider gains a profit without being taxed to the heavens, and both leave the transaction mutually satisfied.

Aside from those who can't afford it, and so get no services and are just left to struggle and suffer - condemning hundreds of thousands of people to the scrap pile due to, in several cases, nothing more than bad luck or the incompetence of others?

The fact that we have a situation is a combination of people not preparing for a downturn by learning valuable and sought-after skills and becoming properly educated and useless, and the government frittering away the money that it coerced out of us and leaving the economy in the bin like a soiled nappy.

Not at all, being skilled doesn't make you invulnerable to an economic downturn. There's a simple issue here - there are more people than there are jobs, nothing to do with whether the unemployed have good skills.

[oo00oo]

(Original post by Alofleicester)
Well, except we pay taxes for the government to use our money to give us a good standard of life, supplying us with health care, a police force, good sanitation, a military to protect ourselves (even if that has gone well off it's actual purpose and instead is run to keep us on top by destroying other countries) amongst others.

That was the idea in principle - and it was, to an extent, nice, in principle.

But the fact is that the services they the government provides are procured inefficiently and at greater cost than necessary and will always, by definition, involve a middle-man taking an unnecessary cut.

The military is just one example of where a relatively simple idea with good intentions grows into an over-bearing, money-thirsty and voter-independent organisation with a mind and agenda of its own. These organisations forget where their money comes from and go off in their own direction. That's an inevitable consequence of delegating to government and trusting them with tax money.

And most importantly, the availability of these services to us is not dependent on what we're earning at the time. It's not a case of, as you seem to desire, the moment you end up in a rough patch, you're completely useless and can just die for all it's worth.

Well that's your opinion. I don't see why I should have to provide a nice safety net for the benefit of others using earnings that I put a lot of time and effort into procuring. There is no rational argument for coercing money out of people by passing societal burdens onto them. I prop myself up, and I do not accept responsibility for those who can't. Yes, it's a shame for those who can't who didn't get into that situation through their own doing, but that's life, and I'm not prepared to make put my time and resources 'fixing' the consequences of the disinterested manner in which the universe works.

Right... Do you think that makes you immune to losing work and being unable to make money? If so, may I suggest pulling yourself out of this delusion in which you live.

Yes, the skills I have are eternally in-demand - that's why I chose to learn those particular skills, because I knew that even in the hardest days, there'd be a source of income for me.

My professional career could easily go down the pan tomorrow - but I can always fall back on the multitude of skills that I've trained in over the years.

Aside from those who can't afford it, and so get no services and are just left to struggle and suffer - condemning hundreds of thousands of people to the scrap pile due to, in several cases, nothing more than bad luck or the incompetence of others?

That's life, my friend. I resent the fact that you say "condemning" though, as if I actively condemn these people to the scrap pile. We are not all born equal - life hands us different fates and those cannot be controlled easily. I completely understand that, and it's extremely unfair. BUT... just because it's unfair doesn't mean that I should be charged with the task of engineering fairness into it. It's too big a job - it's too pointless a job, because unfairness is an inevitable element of life. Sometimes I'm on the wrong end of unfairness, and sometimes I'm on the right end of it. I accept that as part of the package of being alive.

Not at all, being skilled doesn't make you invulnerable to an economic downturn. There's a simple issue here - there are more people than there are jobs, nothing to do with whether the unemployed have good skills.

It doesn't come down like that though. There are some industries which are over-subscribed, and there are some which are under-subscribed. There are some skills which are so common that the pay for them is very little, and there are others that are so rare that the demand and remuneration for them is very high. There are some skills which will always have high demand, and some skills whose demand will vary with the climate.

Yes, generally, there are more people than jobs. But if the jobs you are going for are those jobs in under-subscribed industries, then you'll get one, and you'll do well out of it. If the jobs you're going for are ridiculously common like jobs in retail, the common trades, etc, then you'll struggle.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Guru Jason)
In theory, I would love all these big businesses to pay all of the tax they should but making them pay is just going to mean they take their business elsewhere. They big businesses could probably afford to back out the market for a while damaging us.

amazon, play and ebay have already gone 'elsewhere' they are based off shore and therefore pay no tax here. But they are still allowed to trade here (vie interet etc) unlike proper businesses based in this countyr that actually contribute to tax. all this bitching about banks/big business, their taxes and employment effectively bankroll this country, its the amazons and ebays noone actually complains about - probably becuase they get their cheap chineseknock offs from them

[internetguru]

(Original post by Guru Jason)
In theory, I would love all these big businesses to pay all of the tax they should but making them pay is just going to mean they take their business elsewhere. They big businesses could probably afford to back out the market for a while damaging us.

Big businesses are already taking their jobs elsewhere.

[Stiff Little Fingers]

(Original post by oo00oo)
That was the idea in principle - and it was, to an extent, nice, in principle.

But the fact is that the services they the government provides are procured inefficiently and at greater cost than necessary and will always, by definition, involve a middle-man taking an unnecessary cut.

The military is just one example of where a relatively simple idea with good intentions grows into an over-bearing, money-thirsty and voter-independent organisation with a mind and agenda of its own. These organisations forget where their money comes from and go off in their own direction. That's an inevitable consequence of delegating to government and trusting them with tax money.

Not at all, it's far cheaper for the average person to get medical care here than in privatised systems like America. That's far from a greater cost than necessary. As for the middleman (in this case government officials) taking a cut - that's an argument for making governmental positions voluntary rather than scrapping taxes.

Go off in their own direction? The government are still in charge of the military. We have as much say as we've always had over the military (electing in the government) - I'd rather more say, through direct democracy and everything being voted on by the public, but nothing of the control of the military has majorly changed.

Well that's your opinion. I don't see why I should have to provide a nice safety net for the benefit of others using earnings that I put a lot of time and effort into procuring. There is no rational argument for coercing money out of people by passing societal burdens onto them. I prop myself up, and I do not accept responsibility for those who can't. Yes, it's a shame for those who can't who didn't get into that situation through their own doing, but that's life, and I'm not prepared to make put my time and resources 'fixing' the consequences of the disinterested manner in which the universe works.

Ok then, so if/when you end up down on your luck you won't touch this safety net - will sooner starve than take a small amount of money from the state?
Nature may be cruel and uncaring, but that's no reason to stop looking out for our fellow human beings, more so to help people out more.

Yes, the skills I have are eternally in-demand - that's why I chose to learn those particular skills, because I knew that even in the hardest days, there'd be a source of income for me.

My professional career could easily go down the pan tomorrow - but I can always fall back on the multitude of skills that I've trained in over the years.

As I said, pull yourself out of this delusion - you are still vulnerable to becoming unemployed and reliant on government handouts between jobs. No matter what you think, there'll only be a definite source of income for you through-out your life if benefits exist.

That's life, my friend. I resent the fact that you say "condemning" though, as if I actively condemn these people to the scrap pile. We are not all born equal - life hands us different fates and those cannot be controlled easily. I completely understand that, and it's extremely unfair. BUT... just because it's unfair doesn't mean that I should be charged with the task of engineering fairness into it. It's too big a job - it's too pointless a job, because unfairness is an inevitable element of life. Sometimes I'm on the wrong end of unfairness, and sometimes I'm on the right end of it. I accept that as part of the package of being alive.

Well you are. By saying we should remove taxes, you're endorsing removing the services that these people rely on (public transport for instance). We are all equal - strip away the trappings of Western society and what makes you different to some kid in Somalia?

It doesn't come down like that though. There are some industries which are over-subscribed, and there are some which are under-subscribed. There are some skills which are so common that the pay for them is very little, and there are others that are so rare that the demand and remuneration for them is very high. There are some skills which will always have high demand, and some skills whose demand will vary with the climate.

Yes, generally, there are more people than jobs. But if the jobs you are going for are those jobs in under-subscribed industries, then you'll get one, and you'll do well out of it. If the jobs you're going for are ridiculously common like jobs in retail, the common trades, etc, then you'll struggle.

Not at all - just because some industries are under-subscribed, doesn't guarantee you a job if you retrain for the skills required for that industry.

[zara55]

(Original post by internetguru)
Big businesses are already taking their jobs elsewhere.

Such as? I haven't heard of any. There are some we actually ought to encourage to leave however. One category is the Too Big to Fail banks. Their presence in London, those that are classed as headquartered here, is a huge and ongoing risk to the wellbeing of the entire country, as their casino operations are being allowed to continue unfettered. As we've just seen with JP Morgan, they literally bet billions on wild and unprincipled schemes, not to mention huge speculative loans to ridiculously indebted countries. They do all this because they think the taxpayer will just bail them out should it all get too much. The next bailout is going to be unaffordable.

[internetguru]

(Original post by zara55)
Such as? I haven't heard of any. There are some we actually ought to encourage to leave however. One category is the Too Big to Fail banks. Their presence in London, those that are classed as headquartered here, is a huge and ongoing risk to the wellbeing of the entire country, as their casino operations are being allowed to continue unfettered. As we've just seen with JP Morgan, they literally bet billions on wild and unprincipled schemes, not to mention huge speculative loans to ridiculously indebted countries. They do all this because they think the taxpayer will just bail them out should it all get too much. The next bailout is going to be unaffordable.

Why do you think unemployment is so high in western countries yet China has low unemployment? Because all the businesses went there with their small time jobs.

[zara55]

(Original post by internetguru)
Why do you think unemployment is so high in western countries yet China has low unemployment? Because all the businesses went there with their small time jobs.

China actually has very high unemployment at the moment, which is why there's a great deal of social unrest. It's huge in some regions, which is why large numbers of people left those regions to go to the cities to do exploited, low-paid jobs making products for Apple and trainers and so on.

Business surged up in China primarily because it was convenient for Western corporations to switch production there - compliant, cheap, scared, ununionised workforce; low environmental standards; easy to hire and fire (and drive workers to suicide or even murder them when unproductive, as some companies have been shown to have done) - in short, everything we fought to overcome in the West, China has replaced.

Now the model advocated by the major spokespeople for the free-market is that we should all become "like China", eg, give up well-paid work, dump pensions, flee the areas we grew up in and work as neo-slaves in huge factories with no rights.

A splendid future to look forwards to.

[sorafdfs]

Don't worry Steve Jobs died from cancer lool.x