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Kuala Lampur War Crimes Tribunal: George W. Bush and Co. Guilty of ‘War Crimes’

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    This is a Malaysian court verdict;

    In what is the first ever conviction of its kind anywhere in the world, the former US President and seven key members of his administration were today (Friday) found guilty of war crimes.

    Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and their legal advisers Alberto Gonzales, David Addington, William Haynes, Jay Bybee and John Yoo were tried in absentia in Malaysia.

    The trial held in Kuala Lumpur heard harrowing witness accounts from victims of torture who suffered at the hands of US soldiers and contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    They included testimony from British man Moazzam Begg, an ex-Guantanamo detainee and Iraqi woman Jameelah Abbas Hameedi who was tortured in the notorious Abu Ghraib prison.

    At the end of the week-long hearing, the five-panel tribunal unanimously delivered guilty verdicts against Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and their key legal advisors who were all convicted as war criminals for torture and cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment.

    Full transcripts of the charges, witness statements and other relevant material will now be sent to the Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, as well as the United Nations and the Security Council.

    The Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission is also asking that the names of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales, Yoo, Bybee, Addington and Haynes be entered and included in the Commission’s Register of War Criminals for public record.
    War crimes expert and lawyer Francis Boyle, professor of international law at the University of Illinois College of Law in America, was part of the prosecution team.

    After the case he said: “This is the first conviction of these people anywhere in the world.”

    While the hearing is regarded by some as being purely symbolic, human rights activist Boyle said he was hopeful that Bush and Co could soon find themselves facing similar trials elsewhere in the world.

    “We tried three times to get Bush in Canada but were thwarted by the Canadian Government, then we scared Bush out of going to Switzerland. The Spanish attempt failed because of the government there and the same happened in Germany.”

    Boyle then referenced the Nuremberg Charter which was used as the format for the tribunal when asked about the credibility of the initiative in Malaysia. He quoted: “Leaders, organizers, instigators and accomplices participating in the formulation or execution of a common plan or conspiracy to commit war crimes are responsible for all acts performed by any person in execution of such a plan.”

    The US is subject to customary international law and to the Principles of the Nuremberg Charter said Boyle who also believes the week-long trial was “almost certainly” being monitored closely by both Pentagon and White House officials.

    Professor Gurdial Singh Nijar, who headed the prosecution said: “The tribunal was very careful to adhere scrupulously to the regulations drawn up by the Nuremberg courts and the International Criminal Courts”.

    He added that he was optimistic the tribunal would be followed up elsewhere in the world where “countries have a duty to try war criminals” and he cited the case of the former Chilean dictator Augustine Pinochet who was arrested in Britain to be extradited to Spain on charges of war crimes.

    “Pinochet was only eight years out of his presidency when that happened.”

    The Pinochet case was the first time that several European judges applied the principle of universal jurisdiction, declaring themselves competent to judge crimes committed by former heads of state, despite local amnesty laws.

    Throughout the week the tribunal was packed with legal experts and law students as witnesses gave testimony and then cross examination by the defence led by lawyer Jason Kay Kit Leon.

    The court heard how
    · Abbas Abid, a 48-year-old engineer from Fallujah in Iraq had his fingernails removed by pliers.
    · Ali Shalal was attached with bare electrical wires and electrocuted and hung from a wall.
    · Moazzam Begg was beaten, hooded and put in solitary confinement.
    · Jameelah was stripped and humiliated, and was used as a human shield whilst being transported by helicopter.

    The witnesses also detailed how they have residual injuries till today.

    Moazzam Begg, now working as a director for the London-based human rights group Cageprisoners said he was delighted with the verdict, but added: “When people talk about Nuremberg you have to remember those tried were all prosecuted after the war.

    “Right now Guantanamo is still open, people are still being held there and are still being tortured there.”

    In response to questions about the difference between the Bush and Obama Administrations, he added: “If President Bush was the President of extra-judicial torture then US President Barak Obama is the President of extra judicial killing through drone strikes. Our work has only just begun.”

    The prosecution case rested on proving how the decision-makers at the highest level President Bush, Vice-President Cheney, Secretary of Defence Rumsfeld, aided and abetted by the lawyers and the other commanders and CIA officials – all acted in concert. Torture was systematically applied and became an accepted norm.

    According to the prosecution, the testimony of all the witnesses exposed a sustained perpetration of brutal, barbaric, cruel and dehumanising course of conduct against them.
    These acts of crimes were applied cumulatively to inflict the worst possible pain and suffering, said lawyers.

    The president of the tribunal Tan Sri Dato Lamin bin Haji Mohd Yunus Lamin, found that the prosecution had established beyond a “reasonable doubt that the accused persons, former President George Bush and his co-conspirators engaged in a web of instructions, memos, directives, legal advice and action that established a common plan and purpose, joint enterprise and/or conspiracy to commit the crimes of Torture and War Crimes, including and not limited to a common plan and purpose to commit the following crimes in relation to the “War on Terror” and the wars launched by the U.S. and others in Afghanistan and Iraq.”

    President Lamin told a packed courtroom: “As a tribunal of conscience, the Tribunal is fully aware that its verdict is merely declaratory in nature. The tribunal has no power of enforcement, no power to impose any custodial sentence on any one or more of the 8 convicted persons. What we can do, under Article 31 of Chapter VI of Part 2 of the Charter is to recommend to the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission to submit this finding of conviction by the Tribunal, together with a record of these proceedings, to the Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, as well as the United Nations and the Security Council.

    “The Tribunal also recommends to the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission that the names of all the 8 convicted persons be entered and included in the Commission’s Register of War Criminals and be publicised accordingly.

    “The Tribunal recommends to the War Crimes Commission to give the widest international publicity to this conviction and grant of reparations, as these are universal crimes for which there is a responsibility upon nations to institute prosecutions if any of these Accused persons may enter their jurisdictions”.
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    The verdict doesn't have any enforcement power, but there's hope that the international court could potentially take it up.

    What's your opinions on this? Could the man who instigated and caused the potential deaths of millions actually be brought to justice? Is it possible?
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    I could set up a Court of Bobifier and find Steve Coogan guilty of war crimes if I wanted to, but it wouldn't mean anything.
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    (Original post by Bobifier)
    I could set up a Court of Bobifier and find Steve Coogan guilty of war crimes if I wanted to, but it wouldn't mean anything.
    Coogan did terrible things in 'Nam... terrible things.
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    Well if he is, I hope the next person they find guilty is Mohammed

    Bush's war in Iraq has not cost millions of lives, and as we know, a huge amount of the lives lost are due the disgusting tactics favoured by your Islamic 'freedom fighters'.

    Bush and his administration likely played no part in the actions they have been tried for, to try a figurehead for the actions of those in the rank and file is ridiculous, and the only tenuous point they may have is with Guantanamo. And the Irony of Malyasia making such a verdict when just two years ago it's entire judicial and penal system was heavily criticised by the UN and Amnesty International
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    This is a Malaysian court verdict;





    Source

    The verdict doesn't have any enforcement power, but there's hope that the international court could potentially take it up.

    What's your opinions on this? Could the man who instigated and caused the potential deaths of millions actually be brought to justice? Is it possible?
    Unless you can prove Bush directly ordered all that torture and had knowledge of it himself you got nothing. Would love to see how this tribunal has done that, despite what the article says.
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    I doubt they will actually arrest bush himself but I applaud the efforts to get justice for millions of people .
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Unless you can prove Bush directly ordered all that torture and had knowledge of it himself you got nothing. Would love to see how this tribunal has done that, despite what the article says.
    Bush did admit to authorising torture.
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    This is a Malaysian court verdict;





    Source

    The verdict doesn't have any enforcement power, but there's hope that the international court could potentially take it up.

    What's your opinions on this? Could the man who instigated and caused the potential deaths of millions actually be brought to justice? Is it possible?

    Is this the same malaysian court that attempted try a presidential candidate for a 20 year jail scentence, for having gay sex - twice?
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    (Original post by B-Man.)
    Bush did admit to authorising torture.
    Its debatable if water boarding is torture or not though. Granted to anyone with sense it is but were there to ever be a trial this would be the first of many issues it would get bogged down with. The Bush administration went to great lengths to try to legally justify water boarding
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    The verdict doesn't have any enforcement power, but there's hope that the international court could potentially take it up.

    What's your opinions on this? Could the man who instigated and caused the potential deaths of millions actually be brought to justice? Is it possible?
    Your comments show that you have no knowledge of International Criminal Law. The US is not a party to the Rome Statute because although it signed it, and Bush famously tried to 'unsign' it (which you can't do in international law), it was never ratified by Congress. The only way the ICC can have jurisdiction over a non-signatory is if the UN Security Council refers the case to them, as they did with Libya and Sudan. As the US is obviously a permanent member of the UNSC and thus has veto power (and even if it didn't the UK or France would probably do it for them), there's no way for the Court to 'take it up'. So your question is a moot point.

    Also, you have no proof that he instigated anything. He may have known and been complicit, but instigated? No. Potential deaths of millions? If you're referring to the war, it's not illegal unless they were deliberately targeting civilians or executing attacks that would result in an 'unacceptable' amount of 'collateral damage'. And anyway, the ICC would never have jurisdiction...

    It's probably worth adding that the Clinton admin's sanctions on Iraq were resulting in something like 500,000 children's deaths. When Madeleine Albright was asked about it, she said it was worth it. Did you want to prosecute the Clinton administration too?
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)

    What's your opinions on this? Could the man who instigated and caused the potential deaths of millions actually be brought to justice? Is it possible?
    Bin laden has already been brought to justice.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Its debatable if water boarding is torture or not though. Granted to anyone with sense it is but were there to ever be a trial this would be the first of many issues it would get bogged down with. The Bush administration went to great lengths to try to legally justify water boarding
    It's only debatable to Yoo and Bybee, pretty much everyone else agrees it is...

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...or-398490.html

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...-waterboarding

    http://assets.nybooks.com/media/doc/...crc-report.pdf
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    Not a chance. The US would do anything it can to avoid its former politicians and citizens from being tried in foreign jurisdictions. Unless an American revolution occurs, those convicts will never be extradited in a million years, unless they somehow foolishly step foot in the wrong country. For some reason or other the ICC won't take up the case. I expect Malaysia-US relations may be affected somewhat.
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    (Original post by Steevee)
    Well if he is, I hope the next person they find guilty is Mohammed

    Bush's war in Iraq has not cost millions of lives, and as we know, a huge amount of the lives lost are due the disgusting tactics favoured by your Islamic 'freedom fighters'.

    Bush and his administration likely played no part in the actions they have been tried for, to try a figurehead for the actions of those in the rank and file is ridiculous, and the only tenuous point they may have is with Guantanamo. And the Irony of Malyasia making such a verdict when just two years ago it's entire judicial and penal system was heavily criticised by the UN and Amnesty International
    I don't really believe what I'm reading. Bush's war in Iraq has not cost millions of lives? The imprisonment of hundreds without charge or trial for over a decade is only "tenous"? :lolwut: Widespread torture of innocents, extra-judicial assassinations and regime change aside, how do you come to such ridiculous conclusions without admitting you are entirely biased?

    I can only conclude you are a worthless troll to be in such denial of undeniable historical facts. I still don't really understand how Iraqi and Afghan civillians deserved to die because of islamic terrorists...

    Please go study some history and learn how to evaluate sources.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Unless you can prove Bush directly ordered all that torture and had knowledge of it himself you got nothing. Would love to see how this tribunal has done that, despite what the article says.
    Does admitting it not count?

    Plus the already apparent evidence incriminating John Yoo, Cheney and Rumsfeld is already in the public domain. Wouldn't take a genius to work it out.
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    (Original post by Stefan1991)
    I don't really believe what I'm reading. Bush's war in Iraq has not cost millions of lives? The imprisonment of hundreds without charge or trial for over a decade is only "tenous"? :lolwut: Widespread torture of innocents, extra-judicial assassinations and regime change aside, how do you come to such ridiculous conclusions without admitting you are entirely biased?

    I can only conclude you are a worthless troll to be in such denial of undeniable historical facts. I still don't really understand how Iraqi and Afghan civillians deserved to die because of islamic terrorists...

    Please go study some history and learn how to evaluate sources.
    No, it has not. Looking at the stats an agreeable number is well below 1 million, and a large proportion, if not the majority have been killed by the insurjent forces. Imprisonment without charge on the back of credible intelligence from their security forces. Widespread torture? Let's get a source on that. Regime change? Yeah, getting rid of genocidal dictators is a bad thing guys! How dare they! :facepalm2:
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    OP: Do you know anything about Malaysian Domestic Politics?

    This is a comical and desperate attempt to deflect attention away from their own political problems - not dissimilar from the Argentine tub-thumping over the Falklands whenever they run into trouble at home.

    Millions of people in Malaysia are protesting for constitutional change - and suckers like you decide to come up with some anti-Americanism.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Its debatable if water boarding is torture or not though. Granted to anyone with sense it is but were there to ever be a trial this would be the first of many issues it would get bogged down with. The Bush administration went to great lengths to try to legally justify water boarding
    There is no debate to it, waterboarding is torture. Even people who have had it done to them like Jesse Ventura have said so. There is a thin line between a strong interrogation and torture. On the safe side you have things that our sort of forces do which is putting prisoners into pressure positions followed by lengthy interrogations. That is legitimate and legal. On the other side you have a direct method that causes pain and/or distress in order to gain information. That is torture. There is no debate about it.

    I actually think this decision is interesting but I very much doubt anything would ever come of it. Duby and his cronies/people and Tony Blair and his cronies would never stand trial. They have too many supporters and too many friends in high places.
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    (Original post by Steevee)
    Imprisonment without charge on the back of credible intelligence from their security forces. Widespread torture? Let's get a source on that.
    They wouldn't have needed to imprison them without charge if the intelligence was as credible as you say. The fact that most of the prisoners have been released speaks against what you say. As for the torture, I linked an ICRC report which talks about beating and waterboarding, amongst other things...
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    The verdict doesn't have any enforcement power, but there's hope that the international court could potentially take it up.

    What's your opinions on this? Could the man who instigated and caused the potential deaths of millions actually be brought to justice? Is it possible?
    In similar news Mickey Mouse was found guilty of teabagging Bugs Bunny whislt wearing a clown suit in the next case to be "tried" in the same court.

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