[steve2005]

(Original post by CUFCDan)
They can't quit the Euro and remain part of the EU. New members must join the Euro if they join the EU, so I doubt the EU would let them do this.

I'd default and start again. Austerity won't work.

Can you post your source which says news members must join the Euro?

[chefdave]

(Original post by Classical Liberal)
That was not my point. My point is that there are such things are debt free monies.

You can have a debt free medium of exchange (as long as you strictly enforce it). I wouldn't call it money though because in the modern world virtually all money is paper oriented and based upon debt.

But whatever, it's semantics. My point is monetary reform is a red herring. Like all Western countries Greece is desperate for fiscal reform, but the land value tax -the daddy of fiscal reform- is so politically explosive economists have learned to steer clear of it and instead pretend we can fix problems with an interest rate tweak here or a devaluation there. It's like trying to cure cancer with aspirin.

[CUFCDan]

(Original post by justmyopinions)
Britain, Denmark?

I clearly said NEW members.

(Original post by steve2005)
Can you post your source which says news members must join the Euro?

http://ec.europa.eu/enlargement/enla...index_en.htm#1

New Member States are also committed to complying with the criteria laid down in the Treaty in order to be able to adopt the euro in due course after accession.

[Herr]

(Original post by EssexDan86)
Some interesting ideas, but 10 employees (e.g. on minimum wage) shouldn't be enough to qualify for a 3 year tax break - that's a huge loss of tax to the economy for a very small company size in real terms. Perhaps 20 as a threshold...

The nature of their economy and the way things are in Greece currently other than the state and a few of the big giant companies vast majority of "companies" are under 5 employees or usually just 1 person who then hires his or her own family as a means of tax avoidance or evasion.

Essentially what Greece needs now more than anything is employment a major dose of economic growth / wealth creation without asking for more debts.

Doing a 10 or more employees would be sufficient to create employment and for every 1 new job created it usually supports 2-4 other jobs or even creates it.

But for anything to work first off there needs to be a revamp of the civil service especially the tax department.

[Mbob]

(Original post by chefdave)
The problem isn't monetary policy it's fiscal policy. The Greek state has been spending far too much over the past decade and then employing clever accountancy tricks to cover up the debt. They've been acting like a giant reckless mediterranian hedge fund! If a company had been spending too much, earning too little and promising all their employees they could retire in luxury at 50 would anyone in their right mind recommend just altering the currency they use? I hope not because it doesn't solve the core issues.

Until we can identify what is actually going wrong with clear language we have no hope of solving the Western 'banking' crisis, meddling with currencies to me sounds like the modern version of using leeches to cure all medical ailments. At best it's a wild stab in the dark.

It sounds like you are assuming all Greek problems are due to State borrowing, and ignoring huge private sector debts as well as a large current account deficit.

The advantage of currency devaluation is that, in the long term, it increases competitiveness and reduce the current account deficit. (In the short term the opposite may happen as imports become expensive before exports increase). People's living standards are reduced by increasing prices.

If you can't devalue the currency then you can only increase competitiveness by explicitly driving down costs. The most obvious way to do that is to reduce salaries, but people tend not to be too keen on the idea.

[chefdave]

(Original post by Mbob)
It sounds like you are assuming all Greek problems are due to State borrowing, and ignoring huge private sector debts as well as a large current account deficit.

The advantage of currency devaluation is that, in the long term, it increases competitiveness and reduce the current account deficit. (In the short term the opposite may happen as imports become expensive before exports increase). People's living standards are reduced by increasing prices.

If you can't devalue the currency then you can only increase competitiveness by explicitly driving down costs. The most obvious way to do that is to reduce salaries, but people tend not to be too keen on the idea.

But as you've almost admitted currency devaluation reduces real wages anyway because it drives up the cost of imports, the Greeks intuitively know this which is why they tend to be in favour of keeping the Euro. By you're own criteria then a shift back to the Drachma fails because it erodes incomes , further it fails the Greeks because it attempts to turn greece into a country sized export processing zone, sort of like Europe's answer to China. There are two problems with this, (1) Greece's export capacity is limited to food/drink and 'invisible' exports like tourism (nobody is going to buy a Greek made car), and (2) it still fails to solve the structural problems of excessive public and private sector borrowing.

The main cheerleaders of the default/devalue/and de-couple paradigm are the faux-libertarians and right-wingers who view currency manipulation as a sort of economic panancea. Indeed they've been preaching this mantra so often I believe it's crippled their ability to analyse the situation objectively.

[jkneen95]

For the greek citizens, thigns can hardly get worse than they already are, and so many wish to leave the EU and ignore the austerity measures. However, as bad as the austerity measures would be for the greek economy and that of others, leaving the euro and declaring bankruptcy would not just screw up greece further, but plunge the recovering economies of Europe, North America and Asia into chaos, which would in turn, mean Greece suffers further recession.

[jkneen95]

As a leader, I'd accept that I'd have to take the unpopular option, to save everybody's hides.

[Hype en Ecosse]

Sell the country to Mark Zuckerberg, tbh.

[danny111]

(Original post by Rakas21)
From the Greek position they should man up and commit to austerity and reform, make their citizens pay tax and stop striking.

From the German position they should either go the whole hog and create Eurobonds or kick Greece out.

True words.

[Madmachine]

Start a war. Worked for Germany.

[jkneen95]

(Original post by Madmachine)
Start a war. Worked for Germany.

Only because the first time round plunging them into debt made them hateful and created a second war and has since made many Germans the butt of hateful jokes and stereotypes. I reckon if they were to do anything, their best best would be to just start all over again. Why have a normal war when you can have an uprising? Have a revolution, take over Greece, give it a new name, a new everything. A complete change. They need to start afresh. and a revolution is the closest they can get to "rebooting" the country, although I reckon if this thing continues much further, it will turn to that. They have already had several periods of protests and riots.

[Sdiff]

(Original post by CUFCDan)
They can't quit the Euro and remain part of the EU. New members must join the Euro if they join the EU, so I doubt the EU would let them do this.

I'd default and start again. Austerity won't work.

Austerity has come to mean the cutting of the deficit.

If they default they will not be exempt from cutting the deficit. on the contrary - they will have to cut all of it at once.

[Madmachine]

(Original post by jkneen95)
Only because the first time round plunging them into debt made them hateful and created a second war and has since made many Germans the butt of hateful jokes and stereotypes. I reckon if they were to do anything, their best best would be to just start all over again. Why have a normal war when you can have an uprising? Have a revolution, take over Greece, give it a new name, a new everything. A complete change. They need to start afresh. and a revolution is the closest they can get to "rebooting" the country, although I reckon if this thing continues much further, it will turn to that. They have already had several periods of protests and riots.

Nah, invade turkish cyprus and start beef with the turks. Would liven up the news. It's been so dead since all the big villains died. Nowadays it's all unimportant done to death newspaper scandal, financial crisis that nobody without a pHd from LSE really understands, ANOTHER war in Africa over fufu or whatever, or Where's Madeline Waldo

[Clip]

I'd dress up as Pericles and make another Funeral Oratory.

[jkneen95]

(Original post by Madmachine)
Nah, invade turkish cyprus and start beef with the turks. Would liven up the news. It's been so dead since all the big villains died. Nowadays it's all unimportant done to death newspaper scandal, financial crisis that nobody without a pHd from LSE really understands, ANOTHER war in Africa over fufu or whatever, or Where's Madeline Waldo

LOL nah it wouldn't be the best option, they need a revolution. but if you wanted to start WW3 from Greece and spice up the news, you'd go about it like this:

Take over the Eastern European Countries eg montenegro, Serbia, Slovakia, Ukraine, move west towards Italy, head into the middle East, and then once you've got a relatively large empire, take on the USA, Russia, China, India, France the UK and Germany at the same time. Although If you want me to talk how to successfully take over the world, that's a different matter

[Madmachine]

(Original post by jkneen95)

Take over the Eastern European Countries eg montenegro, Serbia, Slovakia, Ukraine, move west towards Italy, head into the middle East, and then once you've got a relatively large empire

Justinian?

[jkneen95]

(Original post by Madmachine)
Justinian?

Justinian? say what?

[Madmachine]

(Original post by jkneen95)
Justinian? say what?

It's a historical joke based on the areas of the planet you said Greece should invade.

[jkneen95]

Oh. My Eastern European history is somewhat lacking. I know it spent a lot of the time being russian and ottoman, and I know a bit about Ancient Greece, but my historical expertise lies in Western Europe. But everybody knows the way to make things fun is to emower yourself by picking off the weaklings, then when you've become strong enough to not be wiped out overnight, declare all out war on the big players to have much funnage and giggling