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Quran Imperfection and it's implications?

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    Now, most of us know Muslim and non-Muslim alike, how important it is that the Quran is flawless. It is Mohammed's only miracle to hold up and prove he is a prophet. Many Muslims will say "He was an illiterate, and he produced this - that's proof!" Yet, they themselves know that Mohammed only spoke the Quran, he did not produce it. Others wrote and compiled it for him, long after his death. One does not need to be able to read and write to be able to speak elloquently.

    So, having established that it is necessary that the Quran needs to be a miracle and a perfect piece of literature, let's see if it truly is the miracle it is described as.

    The first point I would like to investigate is Salah - the ritualised 5 daily prayers, which are one of the five pillars of Islam. Now, the Quran states the following:
    "Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6:114

    God asserts that the Quran is fully detailed and contains everything for our salvation:
    "We did not leave anything out of this book" 6:38
    "We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything" 16:89
    "......He has revealed to you this book fully detailed" 6:114


    So the Quran states emphatically it is a complete work - that the hadith is uneccessary. However the Quran fails to list 2 necessary daily prayers - the Maghrib and the Asr. How can it be claimed that the Quran is a miracle when it does not even perfectly and explicitly state the prayers it is necessary to perform to be a good Muslim? Answer: It can't.

    Now, given the quotes from the Quran above, why is it that whenever a violent verse is pulled from the Quran the first thing a Muslim will say is "CONTEXT" i.e. Look at the hadith? That is further evidence of imperfections. The Hadith shouldn't be necessary in any way to be a Muslim, but as you can see it is needed and indeed Muslims wouldn't even know how to pray properly without it.

    So as you can see the Quran is no miracle. It is imperfect. It is a human achievement that was remarkable for the time, but it is not beyond recreation. Indeed it is rife with further problems aside from the one above:

    -It is written in Mohammed's very specific branch of Arabic, rather than an independent heavenly source. Mohammed never spoke out of turn with the style of prose he had learnt throughout his life time to preach God's message (aside from the odd word he picked up from other languages and cultures along the way, of course - I mean he was only human after all).

    -Because of Mohammed's illiteracy and reliance on rhyme, many verses are in incorrect orders, and contain incorrect tenses. This is imperfection because you have sacrificed transparency of the verse (which creates confusion among followers) so that it may rhyme. An example of this would be calling Mount Sinai, 'Sinnin' in verse Surah Al-Tanin 95:2 and then calling it Sina in Surah al-Mu'muminun 23:20.

    - Many of the rhymes in the Quran are directly copied from poets from before and during Mohammed's time. A few notable examples are Qus ibn Sa’idah al-Ayadi (d. 600), Qamaia ibn Abi al-Salat (d. 624), al-Haseen ibn Hamam (d. 611) [al-A’raf 7: 8, 9], Waraqa ibn Nofal (d. 592). Many of their works were also better than the Quran in terms of their literary quality, which is strange given that the Quran is supposed to be the word of God?

    - There are many examples of Arabic grammatical errors contained within the Quran. Here are but a few:
    al-Ma’idah 5: 69 (the Arabic word Alsabeoun should be Alsabieen); al-Baqarah 2: 177 (the Arabic word alsabireen should be alsabiroon); al-Imran 3: 59 (the Arabic word fayakoon should be fakaana); al-Baqarah 2: 17, 80, 124; al-A’raf 7: 56 (the Arabic word qaribun should be qaribtun);

    And this is despite the Quran stating numerous times within it's tome that it is written in perfect and clear Arabic tongue.

    -The Quran takes words from other languages, so it isn't actually written in 'perfect' Arabic either:
    Persian: Ara’ik and Istabraq (al-Kahf 18: 31) meaning couches and brocades respectively, Abariq (al-Waqi’ah 56: 18) meaning ewers, Ghassaqan (al-Naba’ 78: 25) meaning pus, Sijjil (al-Fil 105: 4) meaning baked clay;
    Aramaic: Harut and Marut (al-Baqarah 2: 102), Sakina (al-Baqarah 2: 248) meaning God’s presence;
    Hebrew: Ma’un (al-Ma’un 107: 7) meaning charity, Ahbar (al-Tawbah 9: 31) meaning Rabbis;
    Ethiopian: Mishkat (al-Nur 24: 35) meaning niche;
    Syraic: Surah (al-Tawbah 9: 124) meaning chapter, Taghut (al-Baqarah 2: 257; al-Nahl 16: 36) meaning idols, Zakat (al-Baqarah 2: 110) meaning alms, Fir’awn (al-Muzzammil 73: 15) meaning Pharaoh;
    Coptic: Tabut (al-Baqarah 2: 248) meaning ark.

    -There are also a whole host of scientific problems contained within the Quran. Indeed almost all the 'science' it presents is totally wrong. For instance the Quran states that mountains are there so that the earth doesn't shake; Everything was created in pairs (untrue, there are many animals with just one sex); It contradicts itself on the sequence of creation; It even tells us that the sun sets in murky water - despite the fact it is much larger and hotter than the earth.

    So as I have demonstrated the Quran totally fails in it's mission of perfection. It is certainly a large human accomplishment, but miracle it is not. Therefore Mohammed is a false prophet, and the entire religion is incorrect. Anyone who can bury their heads in the sand and ignore this many problems (and more) is clearly brain washed and doesn't wish to know the truth. I have very little doubt many Muslims will probably go through and categorically try and deny these facts, but the fact you have to deny them in the first place and perform such feets of mental gymnatistics to uphold the perfection of a book that God might as well have written himself (apparently), shows that it wasn't written by God.

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    Muslim neg rep brigade, begin your negging
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    Most muslims will stay away from this topic because they know it's a lost cause. The number of errors in the Quran is overwhelming.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    Most muslims will stay away from this topic because they know it's a lost cause. The number of errors in the Quran is overwhelming.
    Yes, it is very hard for them to actually come to terms with because it means admitting their religion is totally false and based on the lies of a medieval warlord rather than a prophet of God.
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    That's weird, in most threads on Islam Muslims will horde en masse within minutes to spew their propaganda and vitriol. This thread however is so quiet I could hear a pin drop.
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    Just wait 'til Perseveranze gets wind of this thread...
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    (Original post by PandyAndy)
    Just wait 'til Perseveranze gets wind of this thread...
    Lol, I think he already has. wikipedia has slowed down considerably for me. He must be searching furiously on it

    Cause you know..all the proof for Islam is on there...not in the miracle books :teehee:
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    Lol, I think he already has. wikipedia has slowed down considerably for me. He must be searching furiously on it

    Cause you know..all the proof for Islam is on there...not in the miracle books :teehee:
    It probably takes a while to load his vast archive of copypasta. Then there's all the boldening, highlighting and colouring-in.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    Lol, I think he already has. wikipedia has slowed down considerably for me. He must be searching furiously on it

    Cause you know..all the proof for Islam is on there...not in the miracle books :teehee:
    You seem to be the quickest to the threads about Muslims than the one's about Christians lol
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    The number of errors in the Quran is overwhelming.
    Like in most "holy books"...
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    (Original post by chickenonsteroids)
    You seem to be the quickest to the threads about Muslims than the one's about Christians lol
    Because there aren't many threads around that attack Christianity or I'd certainly be on them giving my 2 cents. Most of the attacks are based on few choice topics from leviticus and deutronomy. There isn't much else. They can't really say much on what Jesus preached because tbh it'd take quite an imagination to twist his words around into evil things.

    Also, there are quite a few Christians on this forum and I am more interested in hearing their opinions, rather than just imposing on their threads. I should also mention that most of the Christianity threads are either started by Christianlady, Okashira, myself or another Christian and for the most part I am in agreement with their opinions, so I see no need just to post stating that I agree with them.
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    (Original post by david_s0)
    Like in most "holy books"...
    Well this isn't the thread for that but I'd like you to back your statement up because pretty much everything written in the Bible (I am talking about prophesies), have been shown to be true.

    But I can see how that's subjective so I am open to hearing your opinion as to why some of the other books are wrong, instead of just making an umbrella statement.
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    2 hours and not one defense? I am hardly surprised because there is none, but that is surprising in that the Muslims of TSR are being so honest. That, or they're avoiding this thread like the plague because they can't answer the questions it throws up about their cult?

    You can tell it's touched a nerve by the number of negs, they just can't form a reply. They'll probably piggy back one of the crazier bearded Muslim's responses so that they can continue their cognitive dissonance.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    2 hours and not one defense? I am hardly surprised because there is none, but that is surprising in that the Muslims of TSR are being so honest. That, or they're avoiding this thread like the plague because they can't answer the questions it throws up about their cult?
    They are staying away from this not becuase they cannot answer your questions, but because it is a complete waste of time. I just thought I'd let you know so you don't waste your time waiting for someone to answer back.

    I can easily report your thread, but I am not going to. It is a shame that of all people you chose to attach Muslims. If Quran is that full of flaws, why not just let us read it and lead wrong lives? It is none of your business if you are not a believer.

    Cheers.
    (We have other important stuff to do than this)
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    So the Quran states emphatically it is a complete work - that the hadith is uneccessary.
    Yes, the Qur'an states that it is complete. Why does that automatically mean Hadith are unnecessary? The Qur'an tells people to obey Muhammad (whose commands are found in Hadith).

    Also - do you speak Arabic?
    What if I found you a person, or a website that said that all the grammatical errors etc. you've pointed out in the Qur'an aren't really errors at all - they're actually examples of perfect Arabic. Would you believe them?
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    Now, most of us know Muslim and non-Muslim alike, how important it is that the Quran is flawless. It is Mohammed's only miracle to hold up and prove he is a prophet. Many Muslims will say "He was an illiterate, and he produced this - that's proof!" Yet, they themselves know that Mohammed only spoke the Quran, he did not produce it. Others wrote and compiled it for him, long after his death. One does not need to be able to read and write to be able to speak elloquently.

    So, having established that it is necessary that the Quran needs to be a miracle and a perfect piece of literature, let's see if it truly is the miracle it is described as.

    The first point I would like to investigate is Salah - the ritualised 5 daily prayers, which are one of the five pillars of Islam. Now, the Quran states the following:
    "Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?" 6:114

    God asserts that the Quran is fully detailed and contains everything for our salvation:
    "We did not leave anything out of this book" 6:38
    "We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything" 16:89
    "......He has revealed to you this book fully detailed" 6:114


    So the Quran states emphatically it is a complete work - that the hadith is uneccessary. However the Quran fails to list 2 necessary daily prayers - the Maghrib and the Asr. How can it be claimed that the Quran is a miracle when it does not even perfectly and explicitly state the prayers it is necessary to perform to be a good Muslim? Answer: It can't.

    Now, given the quotes from the Quran above, why is it that whenever a violent verse is pulled from the Quran the first thing a Muslim will say is "CONTEXT" i.e. Look at the hadith? That is further evidence of imperfections. The Hadith shouldn't be necessary in any way to be a Muslim, but as you can see it is needed and indeed Muslims wouldn't even know how to pray properly without it
    Why are you quoting out of context? If we take those quotes out of context then it would be impossible for the Qu'ran to contain everything. Everything would have to include Odyssey/Einstein theory of relativity/God delusion/Mein Kampf. Can you see the problem with the literalism and out of context you displayed?

    If you want a explanation for that verse, here it is http://www.islamicity.com/articles/A...ef=IC1201-4977. If you want to know where the Qu'ran states 5 prayers here http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/1092.

    Also, even if I do accept your explanation, that doesn't prove the Qu'ran is wrong. That only proves the people are wrong and should be praying 3 times a day.

    The hadith doesn't contradict the Qu'ran and where it does, the Qur'an wins. It's stated in the Qu'ran to follow Sunnah and that's what the hadith does, shows us the way of the Sunnah.

    Also, I'll admit I don't know Arabic but I doubt you do. Is that not just a copypasta from a anti-Islamic site? What's the difference between you linking that part as proof of the grammatical errors and me linking http://www.answering-christianity.co...n/grammar2.htm to counter it? None. It's pointless for us two to talk about the grammatical errors without actually understanding Arabic.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Yes, the Qur'an states that it is complete. Why does that automatically mean Hadith are unnecessary? The Qur'an tells people to obey Muhammad (whose commands are found in Hadith).

    Also - do you speak Arabic?
    What if I found you a person, or a website that said that all the grammatical errors etc. you've pointed out in the Qur'an aren't really errors at all - they're actually examples of perfect Arabic. Would you believe them?
    Mate there are muslims on other threads saying that the Quran supersedes the Hadiths.

    I pointed out a contradiction between the 2 books and muslims argued that Quran = word of God so it's more important...

    Seriously, that's a very dumb argument and that contradicts you because for you the Hadith are necessary just like the Quran.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    Mate there are muslims on other threads saying that the Quran supersedes the Hadiths.

    I pointed out a contradiction between the 2 books and muslims argued that Quran = word of God so it's more important...
    Yes... so?

    Seriously, that's a very dumb argument and that contradicts you because for you the Hadith are necessary just like the Quran.
    How does it contradict what I said?
    Some Hadith are necessary to understand what Muhammad said. Some Hadith contain errors. What's your point?
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    (Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
    The hadith doesn't contradict the Qu'ran and where it does, the Qur'an wins.
    Talk about taking the easy way out lol.

    No wonder Islam has so many terrorists...they believe the opposite of what you do. The hadiths explicitly call for violence against apostates for example and to be honest....can you really blame them? I mean, they're supposed to be living their life according to Mr. Mo and he's advocated for death to apostates.

    Additionally, how does one decide when to follow the Quran and when to follow the hadiths?

    Your statement I have quoted is the exact reason why Islam is so ridiculous. Its 2 main books can't even agree with each other (because as you say...they can contradict).
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Yes... so?



    How does it contradict what I said?
    Some Hadith are necessary to understand what Muhammad said. Some Hadith contain errors. What's your point?
    Wow if you don't see the problem with that, then I give up on you.

    He is supposed to be the PERFECT MAN remember?
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    Wow if you don't see the problem with that, then I give up on you.

    He is supposed to be the PERFECT MAN remember?
    Who's supposed to be the perfect man?
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