[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by Elipsis)
You say he is the closest to perfect, I tend to disagree. I think he did quite a few things and made quite a few rules that I think we now know are wrong; For instance creating the order that people who engage in homosexuality should be put to death, or having sex with a child. God could have made Mohammed perfect, or he could have made the Quaran perfect with ease because he is infitely powerful, but he didn't do either.

Why are those things wrong? If we assume Allah exists and he is arbitrator of morality, how can we come to the conclusion that those things are wrong? We can't. This is why moral arguments against Islam are pointless. If you believe in the biblical God then you can argue against Islam's morality based on bible but that's pointless to because we have to assume the biblical God exist.

[Elipsis]

(Original post by tazarooni89)
Well, that requires some interpretation on your part, doesn't it?
When you read "fully detailed", you think that means that the Qur'an contains details of everything Muslims need to know. Whereas when I read "fully detailed", I think it means that the Qur'an directs Muslims towards details of everything they need to know, and contains details of everything that God intended to include.



It wouldn't be difficult. But there wouldn't be any need.
These things are vital - but Muslims all over the world still know about them, despite them only being referred to rather than explicitly explained by the Qur'an. So the mission has still been accomplished anyway.



You've dodged my point though. The issue is - how have you decided who is biased on this matter and who isn't, without knowing anything about Arabic grammar yourself?
You say your source is unbiased and mine is biased. I say yours is biased and mine is unbiased. How can you establish which person is getting the grammar correct without knowing to begin with what correct grammar should look like?

So far, it just looks like a matter of choice. You like this guy's conclusion that the Qur'an's grammar is wrong, so you choose to call him the unbiased one.

Yes, when I read "fully detailed" I think it means "fully detailed", that much is obvious. My instant idea when reading the word of God is not to try and meddle with it and turn it around. There is obviously a need for the Quaran to state these things, and like you say it wouldn't be difficult at all (especially for God). Why create such confusion as the Sunni/Shiite split? Why leave it upto a vast collection of other books for people to try and work their way through to get to Allahs point? It just doesn't make sense not to be concise, and to make human's job more difficult. Afterall it has led to many different interpretations - and thousands and thousands of suicide attacks being possible, hasn't it?

I totally see your point about getting to the bottom of who is correct on the grammar issue, and it being a matter of opinion. I just don't expect a Muslim to ever say 'yep that's a mistake right there', it's just not going to happen. But the confusion between Muslims on certain words and teachings is quite a big clue about which camp is right. I am personally inclined to side with the camp who were devout Muslims, and despite the bullying of the Muslim community, decided to act on it by leaving.

[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by getoom)
what i find interesting is that if The prophet marrying Aisha (Ra) was such a big deal then why didn't his enemies at the time say anything about it. just as a side point not to divert us from the main argument

Because they practiced it as well? Just because both of them practiced doesn't make it right.

[Elipsis]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Why are those things wrong? If we assume Allah exists and he is arbitrator of morality, how can we come to the conclusion that those things are wrong? We can't. This is why moral arguments against Islam are pointless. If you believe in the biblical God then you can argue against Islam's morality based on bible but that's pointless to because we have to assume the biblical God exist.

Causing pain to innocent people is wrong. It follows that children are innocent people. Having sex with a child scars them mentally and physically. Therefore having sex with children is objectively wrong, even according to the Quaran itself.

[getoom]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Because they practiced it as well? Just because both of them practiced doesn't make it right.

yeah i should have thought of that

thanks

i just meant it in a contextual position but yeah your logic is sound

[Abesaber]

Never listen to the media, Muslims are portrayed very differently to who they really are for example 9/11 and 7/7 bombings are false attacks created by the US and UK government, I don't have a strong knowledge on Suicide Bombings but i know for sure it doesn't have anything to do with religion, Why is it when a Christian man or anyone from a different religion Kills someone their religion is not mentioned?

[Hashback]

in surah hashr it says 'whatever the prophet pbuh has come with, you follow, and what he has stopped you from doing you stop;. This ayah indicates the need of hadith for muslims to follow what the prophet has sent. Furthermore isnt the fact that the quran was sent with a prophet a reason for the hadiths. The quran didnt come by itself, it was revealed to the prophet muhamad pbuh. The prophet didnt go against the teachings of Allah, and in terms of credibility of hadiths, sahih muslim and bukhari are sufficient and reliable to be used to follow the deen. The Quran is perfect and didnt leave out anything because it specifies in it the role of the prophet pbuh.

[getoom]

(Original post by Elipsis)
Causing pain to innocent people is wrong. It follows that children are innocent people. Having sex with a child scars them mentally and physically. Therefore having sex with children is objectively wrong, even according to the Quaran itself.

do you have a religion

[Spaz Man]

41:44 Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said: "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?" Say: "It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes): They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!"

Aisha was 12 when the Prophet offered to marry her in a long-term contract which was consummated when she was 16.

[getoom]

(Original post by Spaz Man)
41:44 Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said: "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?" Say: "It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes): They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!"

Aisha was 12 when the Prophet offered to marry her in a long-term contract which was consummated when she was 16.

there are actually a lot of different ages supposedly reported ranging fro 9 - 17 (at the age of consummation)

[killa78]

(Original post by getoom)
do you have a religion

He follows The new testament


You know the God is god.
God is human.
God is a holy spirit.

[tazarooni89]

(Original post by Elipsis)
Yes, when I read "fully detailed" I think it means "fully detailed", that much is obvious.

Quite clearly a circular argument.
The point is that the phrase "fully detailed" has more than one valid meaning.

It's like asking - is a school classroom "full" when everyone has taken their seats and there are none left? Or is it "full" when there are so many people crowded in there that there is not a single bit of empty space left?

You've settled on one meaning, but Muslims tend to go with the other valid meaning.
A Muslim never finds himself saying "This information is crucial to my religion, but the Qur'an is no help when it comes to finding it".

There is obviously a need for the Quaran to state these things, and like you say it wouldn't be difficult at all (especially for God). Why create such confusion as the Sunni/Shiite split? Why leave it upto a vast collection of other books for people to try and work their way through to get to Allahs point? It just doesn't make sense not to be concise, and to make human's job more difficult. Afterall it has led to many different interpretations - and thousands and thousands of suicide attacks being possible, hasn't it?

Yes, there are many different interpretations. But there is only one correct interpretation - the one which the author intended. And all the information needed to arrive at this particular interpretation is available.

If you read the Qur'an, you'll see that the Quranic God does not work in the way of eliminating all false possibilities, forcing people to follow the correct one. Rather, he makes it easy for people to choose false beliefs, yet still provides enough information for people to arrive at true beliefs. The responsibility of choosing correctly then lies with the individual.

I totally see your point about getting to the bottom of who is correct on the grammar issue, and it being a matter of opinion. I just don't expect a Muslim to ever say 'yep that's a mistake right there', it's just not going to happen. But the confusion between Muslims on certain words and teachings is quite a big clue about which camp is right. I am personally inclined to side with the camp who were devout Muslims, and despite the bullying of the Muslim community, decided to act on it by leaving.

Well then do remember that it is just a personal inclination and not a compelling argument - and that someone else may be inclined to side with the

[Spaz Man]

(Original post by getoom)
there are actually a lot of different ages supposedly reported ranging fro 9 - 17 (at the age of consummation)

He looked after her from the age of 9, offered her a long-term marriage contract at 12 which was consummated at 16. What's so difficult to understand?

More importantly, it says a lot that people keep focussing on this one issue once it has been explained again and again.

[stevie2]

(Original post by .eXe)
Most muslims will stay away from this topic because they know it's a lost cause. The number of errors in the Quran is overwhelming.

Indeed:-

1000+ MISTAKES/CONTRADICTIONS IN THE QURAN, MAIN PAGE. CONTENTS - AN OVERVIEW http://1000mistakes.com/1000mistakes/index.php

[getoom]

(Original post by stevie2)
Indeed:-

1000+ MISTAKES/CONTRADICTIONS IN THE QURAN, MAIN PAGE. CONTENTS - AN OVERVIEW http://1000mistakes.com/1000mistakes/index.php

yeah posting other sites made by people with no knowledge

the most awesome form of rebuttal

(after you've seen quite a few Muslims just post)

but hey do what you want

[Abesaber]

(Original post by stevie2)
Indeed:-

1000+ MISTAKES/CONTRADICTIONS IN THE QURAN, MAIN PAGE. CONTENTS - AN OVERVIEW http://1000mistakes.com/1000mistakes/index.php

Please don't link some stupid website that you randomly found when you clearly have not studied the quran or the hadith.

[.eXe]

(Original post by getoom)
yeah posting other sites made by people with no knowledge

the most awesome form of rebuttal

(after you've seen quite a few Muslims just post)

but hey do what you want

Lol @ "people with no knowledge"

Seriously, close your mouth kid. That site is extensive...and explanations are very detailed. Hardly seems like the work on an illiterate.

[MohammedAhmed]

First off all, prophet mohammed is perfect because the quran mentions the following ayat.

و وَمَا يَنطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوَىٰ ﴿٣﴾ إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا وَحْيٌ يُوحَىٰ ﴿٤﴾ عَلَّمَهُ شَدِيدُ الْقُوَىٰ ﴿٥﴾ ذُو مِرَّةٍ فَاسْتَوَىٰ ﴿٦﴾ وَهُوَ بِالْأُفُقِ الْأَعْلَىٰ
(Nor does he speak out of desire,It is naught but revelation that is revealed,The Lord of Mighty Power has taught him, The Lord of Strength; so he attained completion, And he is in the highest part of the horizon.

and the quran doesnt contradict, its some hadiths that contradict the quran, the quran ALWAYS TAKES PRECEDENCE OVER THE HADITHS.

[Reform]

Lol how typical.

A thread based on Arabic grammar which no one here has the right to talk about turned into an Islam bashing thread.

[GrowingNinja]

There are no contradictions in the Quran! There may be errors once translated into english that is why people whom are not fluent in arabic should not comment on such things arghh, stop going hate sites and getting your information from there.