[max.d.cox]

Hiya

just was thinking about it in future terms- maybe 100 years time.

it would mean ditching a lot of defence budget therefore saving money and the stronger economies would pick the weaker ones up.

its a nice thought, maybe an unrealistic one...

just wondering what you think...

[prog2djent]

a) We've tried this.

b) I agree on cutting defense (imperialist) budgets completely, but I don't agree we should just give the money we saved to whoever needs it to "stimulate" their economy.

[gagaslilmonsteruk]

It happened with the USA, so I am not ruling out, but a major problem you haven't covered is the language barriers. There are too many languages for it to be possible I think. The USA it was doable as they only speak English and Spanish

[Brandmon]

I'd actually say 50 years tops. The language barrier is receding rapidly as most, if not all, of the younger generation tends to have English as its secondary language. The historical differences are also melting away at an astounding rate and we have been seeing this for a long time now. Who would have thought that just merely several years after WW2, the Germans and French would put aside their differences and form the then ECSC? And just a little more than 20 years ago, Europe was literally considered as having two continents - Western and Eastern Europe. We thought that would be the way of things in the 21st Century; by now it is forgotten.

So taking history as a guideline, I'm mostly hopeful. I'd even wager that by 50 years we will even start working very closely with the Russians.

[bishbash72]

(Original post by Brandmon)
I'd actually say 50 years tops. The language barrier is receding rapidly as most, if not all, of the younger generation tends to have English as its secondary language. The historical differences are also melting away at an astounding rate and we have been seeing this for a long time now. Who would have thought that just merely several years after WW2, the Germans and French would put aside their differences and form the then ECSC? And just a little more than 20 years ago, Europe was literally considered as having two continents - Western and Eastern Europe. We thought that would be the way of things in the 21st Century; by now it is forgotten.

So taking history as a guideline, I'm mostly hopeful. I'd even wager that by 50 years we will even start working very closely with the Russians.

I can't see languages disappearing though. I mean, if they still speak Gaelic in Ireland and Welsh in Scotland, what are the chances that the French are ever going to give up French?

[Brandmon]

(Original post by Callum828)
I can't see languages disappearing though. I mean, if they still speak Gaelic in Ireland and Welsh in Scotland, what are the chances that the French are ever going to give up French?

Do languages have to disappear? Local languages will still remain as strong as ever and still used locally. But a second language can be easily learned which can be used for international communication and indeed there is much consensus in that regard about it being English. As long as such a secondary language is present, the primary language is not at all a problem for communication. And certainly we would not need to eradicate such primary languages the same way we did with the Irish back in the past. And yet indeed Irish Gaelic is making a comeback by its own, without the sacrifice of their knowledge of English.

[bishbash72]

(Original post by Brandmon)
Do languages have to disappear? Local languages will still remain as strong as ever and still used locally. But a second language can be easily learned which can be used for international communication and indeed there is much consensus in that regard about it being English. As long as such a secondary language is present, the primary language is not at all a problem for communication. And certainly we would not need to eradicate such primary languages the same way we did with the Irish back in the past. And yet indeed Irish Gaelic is making a comeback by its own, without the sacrifice of their knowledge of English.

Thing is, without regular contact with English speaking media, real grasp of the language doesn't usually happen. Welsh and Gaelic speakers, as well as Scandinavians, Dutch etc all have good English because they watch English language TV and movies (and Welsh and Gaelic speakers live in majority Anglophone countries). While the French and Spanish don't because everything they watch is dubbed. Maybe if business started being done in English across Europe, but that only really happens in very international workplaces.

Though I do agree with the lingua franca being English and I certainly can't see it changing, though some people are convinced it'll be Chinese soon, despite the fact that they use English over Chinese even in SE Asia.

[Brandmon]

(Original post by Callum828)
Thing is, without regular contact with English speaking media, real grasp of the language doesn't usually happen. Welsh and Gaelic speakers, as well as Scandinavians, Dutch etc all have good English because they watch English language TV and movies (and Welsh and Gaelic speakers live in majority Anglophone countries). While the French and Spanish don't because everything they watch is dubbed. Maybe if business started being done in English across Europe, but that only really happens in very international workplaces.

Though I do agree with the lingua franca being English and I certainly can't see it changing, though some people are convinced it'll be Chinese soon, despite the fact that they use English over Chinese even in SE Asia.

That would have been true in the past yet don't forget one thing - the internet. People are not only having the opportunity to get an opportunity to be exposed to the language but actually use it. Young people are playing their Call of Duties and Diablos (despite the latter's launch problems *snigger*) multiplayer games mostly in English. And the level of English knowledge is much higher amongst youngsters than it is amongst adults as a result. People that I meet over the internet, even in places where only people of a certain nation play, more often than not know English - of course depending on which nation (The French are much much more likely to know English than say Romanians)

[pol pot noodles]

I wouldn't trust a Frenchman with the keys to my car if it was parked on my testicles. I sure as hell wouldn't trust them with any aspect of British economic, social or defence policy. I think a new round of splendid isolation is in order. There's a reason God made us an island. We need to just put our heads down, work hard and prospere on our own.

[Psyk]

(Original post by Callum828)
Though I do agree with the lingua franca being English and I certainly can't see it changing, though some people are convinced it'll be Chinese soon, despite the fact that they use English over Chinese even in SE Asia.

Also there's a huge focus on learning English in Chinese universities. Apparently you can't get a degree without passing English classes. I have a friend at work from China and I think he said about 1/3 of his time at university was spent learning English.

[LysFromParis]

(Original post by Callum828)
I can't see languages disappearing though. I mean, if they still speak Gaelic in Ireland and Welsh in Scotland, what are the chances that the French are ever going to give up French?

In most of Europe outside UK, people tend to speak at least one foreign language (English) pretty well and most of time a second one. Northen European are especially good. Why would you want national language to disappear? Is Canada screwed, or Switzerland?

[Aphotic Cosmos]

(Original post by pol pot noodles)
I wouldn't trust a Frenchman with the keys to my car if it was parked on my testicles. I sure as hell wouldn't trust them with any aspect of British economic, social or defence policy. I think a new round of splendid isolation is in order. There's a reason God made us an island. We need to just put our heads down, work hard and prospere on our own.

God didn't make us an island, erosion did.

This is not the 19th century, where people lived and died within about 50km of their place of birth and long distance communications were a rare and fairly slow luxury. We live in an age where we can fly around the world in less than 48 hours, and talk to people in Australasia almost instantaneously. It is impossible for any nation to make it on it's own.

[bishbash72]

(Original post by LysFromParis)
In most of Europe outside UK, people tend to speak at least one foreign language (English) pretty well and most of time a second one. Northen European are especially good. Why would you want national language to disappear? Is Canada screwed, or Switzerland?

Well there's a very strong secession movement in Canada that almost succeeded, likewise with problems in Belgium, Spain and other multi-lingual states. Hell, even a significant chunk of Scotland want to secede from the UK, and they speak English! Switzerland is pretty much the only one in history that doesn't have regions wanting to secede from it.

[bishbash72]

(Original post by Psyk)
Also there's a huge focus on learning English in Chinese universities. Apparently you can't get a degree without passing English classes. I have a friend at work from China and I think he said about 1/3 of his time at university was spent learning English.

Exactly. The only thing I can see changing in the future is maybe taking some vocabulary from Chinese, and possibly simplifying English grammar somewhat.

In da future we gone speak Singlish la :P

[bishbash72]

(Original post by Brandmon)
That would have been true in the past yet don't forget one thing - the internet. People are not only having the opportunity to get an opportunity to be exposed to the language but actually use it. Young people are playing their Call of Duties and Diablos (despite the latter's launch problems *snigger*) multiplayer games mostly in English. And the level of English knowledge is much higher amongst youngsters than it is amongst adults as a result. People that I meet over the internet, even in places where only people of a certain nation play, more often than not know English - of course depending on which nation (The French are much much more likely to know English than say Romanians)

That's true, the web does speak English. At least that will help with written English.

[RyanT]

I think we'd see European national identities remaining as a sub-regional identity and on top of that we'll have regional identities.

50 years or 100 won't make me see the Bulgarians in the same way I see the Danes/Dutch. There will always be that division between the metacultures in the EU, with the Germanics in the north sea, Latins in the med and Slavs in the east.

I'm not sure if we'd want to get rid of national militaries, but a single defence market would be a big advancement. It should be tied to minimum defence spending requirements however, Germany free-riding off the backs of France and the UK is distasteful.

[pol pot noodles]

(Original post by Aphotic Cosmos)
God didn't make us an island, erosion did.

This is not the 19th century, where people lived and died within about 50km of their place of birth and long distance communications were a rare and fairly slow luxury. We live in an age where we can fly around the world in less than 48 hours, and talk to people in Australasia almost instantaneously. It is impossible for any nation to make it on it's own.

No kidding Sherlock, I was obviously taking the piss with that part. But otherwise, no, I was not suggesting becoming like North Korea, just that I don't see the need for us to be part of any supranational political institution. We certainly should never surrender control of our armed forces. Improved communications and media technology does not mean Europe should all be one big hippie commune that is joined at the hip.

[jamiep151]

I do not see this happening. Quite simply it is not economically viable, and I would argue if you are suggesting a super state I believe undemocratic.

On the economical issue Europe is far too economically diverse to just club together. Just look at how difficult it was for West Germany and East Germany to integrate. Now imagine all European countries trying this.

The idea of stronger economies propping up weaker ones is far too idealistic in my opinion. Just look at what is going on in Europe right now, most countries don't want to cut spending and the Germans (rightfully) don't want to pay the bill. Now imagine telling the stronger economies like Germany and France you now have to support these weak countries (Spain, Greece, etc) forever, I don't see them going for it.

On the democratic issue European countries have a diverse culture and each country is used to a different way of living. The idea that all these countries could be clubbed together and each country be truly represented is just wrong.

For these reasons I don't think it will happen and shouldn't happen.

[g_star_raw_1989]

I don't see it happening at all seeing as sovereignty has been a guiding principle for states for such a long time. Any further union between European states would infringe on this principle and thus unlikely.

[kopite493]

god i hope not

the European union is bad enough a united states of Europe is a shudder worthy thought