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Shocking Honour Killing Story...

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    This is disgusting. However it is a cultural issue and has nothing to do with Islam.
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    (Original post by SaharaDesert)
    Labels like "extreme" Islam, "liberal" Islam etc. are meaningless.

    And what exactly is an "Islamic culture"?
    Just because you come from a Muslim majority country, doesnt neccessarily mean it is "Islamic", if its not following the rules of the religion.
    People are just making up their own terms these days lol.
    A culture that is based on the religion of Islam, as the name suggests. Arranged marriages are a domain of Islam, and this practice is one of the main reasons that led to the demise of the unfortunate Muslim girl.

    The family is muslim, you do know that right? It's rather naive to claim that the girl's murder had absolutely nothing to do with Islam. Islam has played a huge part in shaping the Islamic cultures of today.

    I wouldn't say Islamic extremism is meaningless, in fact it's pretty pertinent in this day and age.

    As for 'Islamic culture', there is a rather long article about it on wikipedia that you might want to consider looking at.
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    (Original post by Mz-Nmh)
    What her parents did is condoned in Islam. A woman has the right to reject or accept a marriage proposal. Her consent is a prerequisite to the validity of the marital contract, according to the Prophet's teachings. So you can't draw a link to Islam for their inhuman actions.
    Sure you used the right term here?
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    (Original post by Virtus May)
    Islamic extremism. It may not be something condoned by the Quran, but such acts were built up from centuries of the violent treatment and insubordination of women in certain Islamic cultures.
    :facepalm2:
    "Islamic Culture" does not exist if it is not by the laws in the Quran. This means that according to Quran this crime is punishable by death penalty and it was purely out of cultural ideology
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    (Original post by Virtus May)
    A culture that is based on the religion of Islam, as the name suggests. Arranged marriages are a domain of Islam, and this practice is one of the main reasons that led to the demise of the unfortunate Muslim girl.

    The family is muslim, you do know that right? It's rather naive to claim that the girl's murder had absolutely nothing to do with Islam. Islam has played a huge part in shaping the Islamic cultures of today.

    I wouldn't say Islamic extremism is meaningless, in fact it's pretty pertinent in this day and age.

    As for 'Islamic culture', there is a rather long article about it on wikipedia that you might want to consider looking at.
    I think to say Islamic culture is quite misleading.
    Sure, culture has been influenced by Islam, but it has also been influenced by several other things as well. For example, Pakistani culture has remnants of Hindu religion, superstition traditions inherited from other influences, perhaps effects of western influence for those living in the west. Cultures such as that of Iranian/Afghan and some regions of Central Asia; again, yes they are predominantly Muslim-majority, but that doesnt mean their culture is completely aligned with Islam. There are also cultural practises inherited from Zorotastrianism and other practises that have nothing to do with Islamic thought.

    So its important to distinguish between culture and Islamic rules.

    What exactly do you mean by "arranged" marriages? If you mean forced, then no that is not the domain of Islam.
    In Islam, you need the consent of both individuals otherwise the marriage contract is invalid.

    And also, just because theyre family was Muslim, doesnt automatically mean that Islam had something to do with it. I dont see anyone using that logic for when a Christian or a Jew commits a crime. I dont see anyone saying, hey that Christian man stole something from a store so that must mean his religion influenced him in some unknown but definite way.
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    (Original post by badcheesecrispy)
    She clearly wasnt being 'chaste' or heeding family honour, thats why she was killed. I mean, these parents dont want their kids (or is that, daughters? I mean only the women have to suffer dont they?) to have a job or, my god, become westernized, or have a normal life that isnt resembling a rural third world village, they just want all the free things the UK gives out like the NHS and other benefits. Thats pretty obvious, or they would have stayed in Pakistan as they clearly prefer the lifestyle and people.
    She was killed because maybe she did do those things. That doesn't mean the parents actions are condoned by muslims, otherwise alot of teenage girls would be killed... Women aren't the only ones to suffer either, honour killings happen for males as well.
    Many muslim women do have jobs in this country... Many of them take up decent jobs...

    Define a normal life of a third world village and compare it to what these kids have here. I think you'll find the kids here do have a westernised lifestyle.

    Just because muslims shouldn't have relationships outside marriage and dress in a certain manner doesn't make them any less 'westernised.'
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    (Original post by Booyah)
    There are many problems with societies that still believe in honour killings, but I as a person cannot persuade them against honour killings, you have things such as acid attacks going on and FGM.

    All of this seems to be sparked off by Eastern countries (to an extent most perpertrated of these kinds of crimes are usually from LEDC's), but we cannot tell them how to run their religions, or how to run their society, unfortunately we have to stand by and watch things like this happen and when it happens in England we can take charge of a situation and deal with it after it is too late.
    Pakistani society does not believe in honor killings....It is the UK's failure when they let all the garbage of foreign countries in and then blame those countries...Tell me how is it Pakistan's fault if UK failed to filter out the garbage from good stuff when letting them in. I call them garbage of Pakistan, cuz they left Pakistan, cuz they were not capable of making a living there or they wanted to make more money etc....

    No offense but you cant blame a foreign country for people who had been living in your country for over 10 years...10years is enough time to educate anyone, even a monkey....
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    (Original post by zedeneye1)
    Pakistani society does not believe in honor killings....It is the UK's failure when they let all the garbage of foreign countries in and then blame those countries...Tell me how is it Pakistan's fault if UK failed to filter out the garbage from good stuff when letting them in. I call them garbage of Pakistan, cuz they left Pakistan, cuz they were not capable of making a living there or they wanted to make more money etc....

    No offense but you cant blame a foreign country for people who had been living in your country for over 10 years...10years is enough time to educate anyone, even a monkey....
    Wow, so you are oblivious to the fact that it does happen to the East and that it only affects immigrants into the UK? As a society in England we do not believe in honour as much as Middle Eastern families do today, people carry on their own values where ever they live, and who said I was blaming a foreign country over what happened in our country? I said as a general over view that Eastern societies practise honour killings not the UK...
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    I'm just going to state something.
    Not all honour killings are due to religion or nationality => we cannot treat nationality or religion as causes
    is fundamentally faulty and illogical reasoning. I don't expect anything to change anytime soon in the quality of these debates, but sooner or later someone with influence and credibility will call bull****, and people will begin to put this wretched phase in societal discussion behind us while naturally pretending they had nothing to do with it. In my opinion, every issue like this has to be treated as having a variety of factors, and because of that every one of them has to be examined in great scrutiny. Also, terminology should naturally reflect the dominant causes, and phrases such as 'black culture' should not be treated as 'generalisations' for the sake of vapid straw man arguments.
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    (Original post by patrickinator)
    Everything. People use religious texts and traditions to pursue their own beliefs and desires. Islam allows this, so does Catholicism and pretty every other religion.
    Islam does not mandate honour killing, especially since it dosen't really recognise heredity or 'traditionalism' in the sense of ethnic lineage. Traditional cultures don't really do things in terms of adhering to orthodox religious principles- their motivations tend to be more culturally rooted.

    Hence why honour killings are still prevalent in many Christian families (in Africa, for example)- there have also been cases in Catholic families, Jewish families and Hindu families.
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    (Original post by zedeneye1)
    Pakistani society does not believe in honor killings....It is the UK's failure when they let all the garbage of foreign countries in and then blame those countries...Tell me how is it Pakistan's fault if UK failed to filter out the garbage from good stuff when letting them in. I call them garbage of Pakistan, cuz they left Pakistan, cuz they were not capable of making a living there or they wanted to make more money etc....

    No offense but you cant blame a foreign country for people who had been living in your country for over 10 years...10years is enough time to educate anyone, even a monkey....
    There hasnt ever been blame on Pakistan as a nation state- indeed, the Pakistani government dosen't condone honour killings either.

    But, in pakistani communities, as well as other traditionalist communities, these things are prevalent, because of the notion of honour, which has its foundations in ethnic lineage and hereditary. To many Pakistani elders, this lineage is much more important than Islam itself- in that many would rather their children and grandchildren are married to, say, unreligious Pakistani men, rather than a very religious Black man, even if the latter was a Muslim.

    Secondly, there is evidence, which is notable from anyone living within these communities, that certain conditions and traditions should be blindly followed without question. This includes obedience to parents and elders, with any form of questioning seen as a sign of disrespect. I can attest to this, as I myself come from a traditionalist famiy who strongly believe in their ancestral traditions, much more so than their religious ones.

    Id say honour killings is a component of a large cultural problem, which will be fixed within the next few generations of south asian peoples.
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    (Original post by Phantom_X)
    Islam does not mandate honour killing, especially since it dosen't really recognise heredity or 'traditionalism' in the sense of ethnic lineage. Traditional cultures don't really do things in terms of adhering to orthodox religious principles- their motivations tend to be more culturally rooted.

    Hence why honour killings are still prevalent in many Christian families (in Africa, for example)- there have also been cases in Catholic families, Jewish families and Hindu families.
    'Mandate' is much stronger than "People use religious texts and traditions to pursue their own beliefs and desires."
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    (Original post by Virtus May)
    A culture that is based on the religion of Islam, as the name suggests. Arranged marriages are a domain of Islam, and this practice is one of the main reasons that led to the demise of the unfortunate Muslim girl.

    Arranged marriages are the norm around the world other than Europe and America. Another thing is that this girl had a FORCED arranged marriage which actually led to her demise. In Islam you must give consent for marriage without any other external influences otherwise it's invalid.

    The family is muslim, you do know that right? It's rather naive to claim that the girl's murder had absolutely nothing to do with Islam. Islam has played a huge part in shaping the Islamic cultures of today.

    Islam clearly has nothing to do with what they did......no where in Qu'ran allows this, it's murder and if you know Islam, then you'll see it's punishable by death, they acted against Islam.(No such thing as Islamic culture, cos it would mean a culture which is based on Islam which like Pakistan's culture isn't.)

    I wouldn't say Islamic extremism is meaningless, in fact it's pretty pertinent in this day and age.

    As for 'Islamic culture', there is a rather long article about it on wikipedia that you might want to consider looking at.
    Islamic culture doesn't exist, Islam is a way of life, etc.......doesn't mean it's a culture,plus the things you see in Pakistan, etc are their specific culture which existed before they were Muslims.
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    (Original post by Phantom_X)
    There hasnt ever been blame on Pakistan as a nation state- indeed, the Pakistani government dosen't condone honour killings either.

    But, in pakistani communities, as well as other traditionalist communities, these things are prevalent, because of the notion of honour, which has its foundations in ethnic lineage and hereditary. To many Pakistani elders, this lineage is much more important than Islam itself- in that many would rather their children and grandchildren are married to, say, unreligious Pakistani men, rather than a very religious Black man, even if the latter was a Muslim.

    Secondly, there is evidence, which is notable from anyone living within these communities, that certain conditions and traditions should be blindly followed without question. This includes obedience to parents and elders, with any form of questioning seen as a sign of disrespect. I can attest to this, as I myself come from a traditionalist famiy who strongly believe in their ancestral traditions, much more so than their religious ones.

    Id say honour killings is a component of a large cultural problem, which will be fixed within the next few generations of south asian peoples.
    I'm Bengali, I exactly know what you mean..........it really makes me angry, then they don't even bother acting on things they know are wrong ¬¬
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    (Original post by Spaz Man)
    The Qur'an rejected the traditional and cultural practice of killing unwanted female children soon after birth. As it appears in (Qur'an 16:58-59),the religious message states: "When news is brought to one of them, of (the birth of) a female (child), his face darkens, and he is filled with inward grief. With shame he hides himself from his people, because of the bad news he has had! shall he retain it (his face) (sufferance and) contempt, or bury it in the dust? Ah! what an evil (choice) they decide on!"

    The Prophet of Islam said that "one to whom a daughter is born and who does not bury her alive, does not humiliate her not prefer a son to a daughter, will be sent to Paradise". Another tradition of Muhammad makes hell fire prohibited to he who undergoes trials and tribulations due to a daughter and yet does not hate her and behaves well towards her.
    Well Said!! Wish I could Give This a Thumbs Up But I've Reached My Limit
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    (Original post by badcheesecrispy)
    These parents are a disgrace, forcing a girl to leave her job? First BIB- is allowed in Islam for women to be beaten, especially daughters who are meant to obey, if they dont. Still, more a cultural thing although Islam does allow it and no you cannot say otherwise.
    with strict guidelines which the parents were obviously not following

    The father’s duty is to bring his children up well and to take care of them, and hitting may be used as a means of discipline when the situation requires that and when all others have failed, and there should be no harshness in the hitting, and we must not hit the face. The father should not hit his child at the time of extreme anger, or with a sharp instrument that may injure him, or with anything that may break bones, and he should not hit him in a place where a blow may be fatal. Brandishing the stick may be more effective than actually hitting. The point is that when disciplining his child, a father should follow the principle of using the gentlest means then the next gentlest; he should not resort to the harshest and most difficult means if he can achieve his aim with something that is easier and gentler.

    (Original post by badcheesecrispy)
    Indirectly, the fact that people from this part of the world are usually very religious, religion says girls must be 'chaste', puts emphasis on family, and is heavily integrated in culture which as you will know this honour killing business belongs in.

    Of course, directly no religious script allows this or encourages it.

    It does however put women as nothing more than property that must keep 'honour' and stay 'chaste'. Put two and two together, think about it and you'll see how religion influences culture, especially with people from this part of the world.
    that goes for men as well (stay chaste and keep their honor) so if women are property of men men are also property of women ... and you have not added 2 and 2 you've added 3 and 5 and got -4.78

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    (Original post by Phantom_X)
    There hasnt ever been blame on Pakistan as a nation state- indeed, the Pakistani government dosen't condone honour killings either.

    But, in pakistani communities, as well as other traditionalist communities, these things are prevalent, because of the notion of honour, which has its foundations in ethnic lineage and hereditary. To many Pakistani elders, this lineage is much more important than Islam itself- in that many would rather their children and grandchildren are married to, say, unreligious Pakistani men, rather than a very religious Black man, even if the latter was a Muslim.

    Secondly, there is evidence, which is notable from anyone living within these communities, that certain conditions and traditions should be blindly followed without question. This includes obedience to parents and elders, with any form of questioning seen as a sign of disrespect. I can attest to this, as I myself come from a traditionalist famiy who strongly believe in their ancestral traditions, much more so than their religious ones.

    Id say honour killings is a component of a large cultural problem, which will be fixed within the next few generations of south asian peoples.
    (Original post by Booyah)
    Wow, so you are oblivious to the fact that it does happen to the East and that it only affects immigrants into the UK? As a society in England we do not believe in honour as much as Middle Eastern families do today, people carry on their own values where ever they live, and who said I was blaming a foreign country over what happened in our country? I said as a general over view that Eastern societies practise honour killings not the UK...
    What you guys are talking is complete nonsense...

    Tell me if you have gone there? Or have you spent more than 3-5years continuously living there in recent times? Have you gone there and met with the lower class, have you talked to them, do you know their way of life? Or is your source, media?

    I can tell you one thing, the acid throwing cases and honor killing cases etc are as rare in pakistan as similarly disgusting acts in USA are....

    @phantom : I dont know when was the last time you went to pakistan, but the kind of people you are talking about usually come from rural and desert areas of sindh, baluchistan, lower punjab and some parts of khyber-pakhtukhwa and are in a minority in Pakistan...

    @booyah : Having honor and killing for honor are two different things. If you have no honor, shame on you. But honor killing is not allowed by Islam, unless you consider the punishment for adultery to be honor killing....

    And this honor killing is not as common as most people in uk think it is.
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    What made them do this? Or should I not ask?
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    (Original post by zedeneye1)
    What you guys are talking is complete nonsense...

    Tell me if you have gone there? Or have you spent more than 3-5years continuously living there in recent times? Have you gone there and met with the lower class, have you talked to them, do you know their way of life? Or is your source, media?

    I can tell you one thing, the acid throwing cases and honor killing cases etc are as rare in pakistan as similarly disgusting acts in USA are....

    @phantom : I dont know when was the last time you went to pakistan, but the kind of people you are talking about usually come from rural and desert areas of sindh, baluchistan, lower punjab and some parts of khyber-pakhtukhwa and are in a minority in Pakistan...

    @booyah : Having honor and killing for honor are two different things. If you have no honor, shame on you. But honor killing is not allowed by Islam, unless you consider the punishment for adultery to be honor killing....

    And this honor killing is not as common as most people in uk think it is.

    I would count adultery killings as honour killing, yes of course these are freak events, however they do not need to be tied with Islam, did I say the world Islam in my passage? I do not think so, there are Middle Eastern countries with Hindus, Sikhs and many others living there.

    Being a part Indian I have talked to fellow family members about these issues and unfortunately it does come up every now and again in the Eastern countries, not the Western countries (if you have a case study feel free to show me but a British family doing so is unheard of).
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    (Original post by zedeneye1)
    What you guys are talking is complete nonsense...

    Tell me if you have gone there? Or have you spent more than 3-5years continuously living there in recent times? Have you gone there and met with the lower class, have you talked to them, do you know their way of life? Or is your source, media?

    I can tell you one thing, the acid throwing cases and honor killing cases etc are as rare in pakistan as similarly disgusting acts in USA are....

    @phantom : I dont know when was the last time you went to pakistan, but the kind of people you are talking about usually come from rural and desert areas of sindh, baluchistan, lower punjab and some parts of khyber-pakhtukhwa and are in a minority in Pakistan...

    @booyah : Having honor and killing for honor are two different things. If you have no honor, shame on you. But honor killing is not allowed by Islam, unless you consider the punishment for adultery to be honor killing....

    And this honor killing is not as common as most people in uk think it is.
    Such mentalities are more common than youd think, particularly in areas of london of which I know well, ie. Tooting and Tower Hamlets.

    Thats also besides the point. Honour killings might be rare in some elements of Pakistani society- usually the Pakistani middle class, who tend to be more liberally minded and less religious, but within the working and lower classes, religion plays a much larger role, as do ethnic customs and traditions. The latter still exists as a fundamental problem, even if you say theres only a specific element of society undertaking this.

    Its true in British society too- I come from a middle class, liberal, somewhat humanist Indian Muslim family who are more open to ideas, intellectual discussion etc. A lot of my extended family live in communities where its less liberal, and more religious- where you cant even talk about things to do with philosophy, without being called a heathen or a traitor to their culture. I am very well aware of this diversity as I have lived within these various traditions- and the fact that they do exist. What is troubling is that many liberally minded Pakistanis choose to neglect these problems, dismissing them as something 'the lower class/castes do', or denying its existence.

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