[LeeC]

(Original post by ninth2)
I'm also very wary of these people who claim to have 'gifts'. I think a very large majority of them are opportunistic frauds who take advantage of other people's grief... HOWEVER, my mum did once visit a medium who wanted no payment, just an optional donation to his spiritualist church. He was incredibly scarily specific and spoke of things he could NOT have possibly known beforehand; he talked about our christmas tree and how my mum would often find the decorations had been completely rearranged. She apparently told me off at the time, and years later she visits this medium, who says that her late father has come 'forward' and says "You told the wrong person off for messing with the decorations on the tree".

Scary! But honestly true.

Could easily be a false memory, they are very common and this explanation is much more reasonable than him seeing into the past! The fact that he wanted no donation makes no difference to his psychic abilities.

[girl55]

(Original post by Steevee)
Hey there little fella.

My Grandparents are self confessed mediums and spiritual healers. They have been going to spiritualist churches for over a dozen years and fully believe the things they say.

I looked closely into it, because noone wants to believe their grandparents are bat**** insane. I researched it, I talked to them, I took part in some of their 'mediumship', it's bollox. And by the way, my grandparents? The stars of their Church, the 'most intune' of the people there, as believed by scores of other spiritualists. Boom, anecdotal evidence.

Anyway, you;re entire argument is pretty damn rubbish. You are throwing around names of spiritualist systems as if that in itself means something. I can throw around the names of various Pagan religions within which people claimed to have seen mythical beasts, Gods and such like, that doesn;t prove anything.

Have their "powers" been subject to a scientific test? No? Didn't think so. Scientists didn't just dismiss spiritualism because of arrogance they did so because no medium, spiritual healer or psychic has ever passed a scientific test. After all science used to believe in some crazy things so it's not too hard to work out that they did once try and see if there was any truth in it but decided it was all hoakum. And if victorian scientists were calling it hoakum I don't know wht more proof you need.

[LeeC]

(Original post by girl55)
Have their "powers" been subject to a scientific test? No? Didn't think so. Scientists didn't just dismiss spiritualism because of arrogance they did so because no medium, spiritual healer or psychic has ever passed a scientific test. After all science used to believe in some crazy things so it's not too hard to work out that they did once try and see if there was any truth in it but decided it was all hoakum. And if victorian scientists were calling it hoakum I don't know wht more proof you need.

I think he agrees with you...though you posts sounds like you think he disagrees.

[Steevee]

(Original post by girl55)
Have their "powers" been subject to a scientific test? No? Didn't think so. Scientists didn't just dismiss spiritualism because of arrogance they did so because no medium, spiritual healer or psychic has ever passed a scientific test. After all science used to believe in some crazy things so it's not too hard to work out that they did once try and see if there was any truth in it but decided it was all hoakum. And if victorian scientists were calling it hoakum I don't know wht more proof you need.

Did you even read my post?

[The_Lonely_Goatherd]

(Original post by Steevee)
Well that's pretty freaking racist. And you're a Mod? M ight want to think more carefully about what you write. Try changing that for Western or British. There are plenty of weak minded white people that believe in such nonsense

Um, not sure why you think I'm a mod. My username is pink, not purple

[Steevee]

(Original post by The_Lonely_Goatherd)
Um, not sure why you think I'm a mod. My username is pink, not purple

Apologies, I see you are a Forum Assistant

[The_Lonely_Goatherd]

(Original post by Steevee)
Apologies, I see you are a Forum Assistant

Which means I only have to be nice to people submitting their personal statements

I have already apologised if I offended anyone with the "white people" comment and I only intend to apologise once for it. So I direct you to an early post where I apologised

[Hypocrism]

(Original post by Lazar Wolf)
You are starting to lose your temper a little bit. there is no need to swear or become abusive. I can still see though that you know absolutely nothing about the subjects that you dismiss. This is just plain prejudice on your part.

As for the links you provided, the critique that is presented here is woefully inadequate, only critiques of parts of a huge amount of work by the aforementioned scientists such as Jung. you must have searched quite hard through Google to get these.

I could perhaps ask you what personal experience you have of the I Ching, synchronicity, the Tarot, shamanism and a host of other paranormal fields. I know though that you have no experience of these fields whatsoever, it is pure personal prejudice on your part.

Wisdom begins with the words 'I don't know' not 'I don't want to know'. Science has also explored many paranormal fields, and come up with some interesting theories for psychic phenomena. Rather than dismiss such phenomena outright, as you do, they research it. I suggest you do the same.

As for Tim Minchin, I literally had not even heard of him until I did a quick google and found info on him in Wikipedia. He seems a talented performer, although an egotist who loves the limelight all the same.

The tone of your postings is beginning to become unpleasant and aggressive, a sure sign that you are losing the argument and the venom of your postings indicates that my assertions are hitting the mark. Excuse me if I duck out at this stage, not because I am wrong, but I have better things to do than argue with an angry bigot.

Actually I'm using humour to make a very boring and easy discussion into something more bearable.

The point is this.

Give me a single piece of empirical evidence, a direct link to a scientific study that was not thrown out by peer review, then we will talk.

[TheJ0ker]

God I hate so called psychic's. They take advantage of people for money.

[aljolson]

(Original post by daisydaffodil)
I'm not one for ghosty type stuff - although I am Catholic and do believe in God and Christian teachings, I think we all go to Heaven eventually etc.

Generally I see horoscopes, pyschics and the like as a load of boo-hockey and don't believe in them much, I read stuff like that sometimes but have always been taught that the Church rejects the teaching of such things and don't take much from them!

Anyway; a family friend knows a clairvoyant type person, used to be a colleague or something. She received an email today refering to events in her life that she had told no-one of, deeply personal events and refering to the spirit of someone who died a long time ago - a child she lost through a termination. Sort of akin to the bit in the Sixth Sense where the wee boy tells his mum about grandma etc... Friend is very shaken up apparently.

It's daft to believe that this is actually genuine, am I right? But if isn't, how on earth would someone (who only very distantly knows friend) know such intimate details of things, things that she couldn't possibly have ever known? It's sort of made me question my own beliefs and wondering what you people think.. sometimes you can easily explain pyschic things as just vague things that could apply to anyone, but this is so specific and couldn't just apply to anyone ..

So any thoughts?

Psychics and suchlike people have been investigated by scientists for many years, none have passed rigorous testing, most wont cooperate. I am beginning to believe that Teapot is orbiting the earth. By the way do you also believe in magicians, GULLIBLE GULLIBLE GULLIBLE.

[coolguysfwn]

"Despite all limitations, scientists have not given up their inquiry into psychic experiences and spiritual flights of human soul. Terms such as extra-sensory perception (ESP), out-of-body experience (OBE), precognition, clairvoyance, claims of telepathy and psychic experience describe all those events to which scientists fail to provide any logical interpretation.

Robert Rivlin, and Karen Gravelle in their joint-venture Deciphering the Senses have examined the range of human perception and revealed that there may be as many as seventeen senses. Drawing on recent scientific research, they have described certain psychic experiences and their attempts to find some ‘scientific interpretation’ to these events...

Science deals only with physical matter and not spiritual realities. They have their respective scopes and domains. Science is based on reason whereas spiritual existence of man is based on faith in the unseen and revival of life beyond grave. Science believes in trial and error and persistent investigation into material reality; spiritual life is based on direct revelations and inspirations.
Our sensory apparatus can perceive the spiritual realities in the form of observations that can only bewilder human intellect." [Sufism & Psychic Abilities, pg. 26]

"What cannot be explained in the light of current set of scientific laws is usually either rejected or denied a proper rational status. Later, when scientific method overcomes its confusion, it makes some room for the facts denied earlier. For instance, homeopathy was once treated as illegal practice; its founder Dr. Hahnemann was banished from his native land. Later, it became popular all over the world.

Similarly, acupuncture was once totally rejected by medical scientists, but it is now considered a standard practice. Likewise, science has developed some degree of acceptance for psychic phenomena. In some cases, it offers at least partial explanations while for others, such as reincarnation, they are watchful and look for some more developments and evidence.

Psychologists have divided ESPs and OBEs into categories. Precognition and telepathy is a single category in which a person experiences something without immediate physical reference. Psychokinesis is another type where objects are moved by mental powers. Scientists now regard ESP as a human experience and try to explain it through the concept of magnetism and electromagnetic fields, which permeate humans as well as the universe." [[Sufism & Psychic Abilities, pg. 34]]

Later, the author describes different scientific interpretations to such phenomena. the book actually centres around Islamic spirituality i.e. Sufism.


You can read this book [Sufism & Psychic Abilities] online at www.scribd.com/doc/83653462/Sufism-Psychic-Abilities