What were people actually expecting from the "Arab Spring"
Discuss events occurring around the world, relations between countries, or actions of any group or organisation with an international focus.
| Announcements | Posted on | |
|---|---|---|
| TSR launches Learn Together! - Our new subscription to help improve your learning | 16-05-2013 | |
-
- Reputation:
- Benevolent Member
- Location: Hove
- Posts: 641
Re: What were people actually expecting from the "Arab Spring"My personal opinion is that religion and government should never, ever be combined. Have religion in your life, if that's what you want then absolutely but it's healthy to have a seperation of State and Church (or Mosque in this case).(Original post by NoraHTunis)
But if the country WANT religion implemented into their daily lives, Why can't they have it? I'm Tunisian, and we just wanted to be free from the dictatorship. Islam isn't a religion of Terror or Murder, if we want religion in our government, and we voted for it in a FAIR and DEMOCRATIC election, why does the whole world seem to have a problem with it?
We could argue for hours about what Islam is or is not, I would argue that a literal interpretation of the Quran does indeed condone murder and terror but you are right that these certainly aren't the views or beliefs of most ordinary Muslims - it isn't that I don't think states should be governed by Islam, more that I don't think they should be governed by any religion.
Ultimately I'm glad that Tunisians are making their own decisions and you are right that we shouldn't tell you how to live your lives, that doesn't change the fact that I wish things might have gone differently.Last edited by Josh93; 26-05-2012 at 21:08. -
- Reputation:
- Junior Member
- Posts: 53
Re: What were people actually expecting from the "Arab Spring"(Original post by Josh93)
My personal opinion is that religion and government should never, ever be combined. Have religion in your life, if that's what you want then absolutely but it's healthy to have a seperation of State and Church (or Mosque in this case).
We could argue for hours about what Islam is or is not, I would argue that a literal interpretation of the Quran does indeed condone murder and terror but you are right that these certainly aren't the views or beliefs of most ordinary Muslims - it isn't that I don't think states should be governed by Islam, more that I don't think they should be governed by any religion.
Ultimately I'm glad that Tunisians are making their own decisions and you are right that we shouldn't tell you how to live your lives, that doesn't change the fact that I wish things might have gone differently.
The Quran does NOT condone terror or murder! I know the quote you are talking about and it was revealed just before the prophet went to war with people who wanted all the muslims and Muhammed dead! Usually, they would capture them and not kill them, but that time, Allah knew their intention so he told them to protect themselves, they would have to kill the disbelievers (NOT EVERY DISBELIEVER, as every human being thinks, the disbelievers who wanted to annihilate them! -
- Reputation:
- Benevolent Member
- Location: Hove
- Posts: 641
Re: What were people actually expecting from the "Arab Spring"Honestly, my knowledge of the Quran is not nearly extensive enough to actually argue the point with you; what matters (as is the case with all religions) is interpretation not literal content anyway.(Original post by NoraHTunis)
The Quran does NOT condone terror or murder! I know the quote you are talking about and it was revealed just before the prophet went to war with people who wanted all the muslims and Muhammed dead! Usually, they would capture them and not kill them, but that time, Allah knew their intention so he told them to protect themselves, they would have to kill the disbelievers (NOT EVERY DISBELIEVER, as every human being thinks, the disbelievers who wanted to annihilate them!
Having said that, I'm not even arguing that Islam is a particularly aggressive religion, purely that I don't think it should form the basis of government.
I had hoped that more secular governments would arise because let's face it the West does not seem to bond particularly well with Islamic states and I would really like to see us have better relations with the Middle East and Muslim world in general.
However if these new governments prove to be moderate, treat their people well and don't assume a position of automatic opposition to the West then fair play to them. -
- Reputation:
- Junior Member
- Posts: 53
Re: What were people actually expecting from the "Arab Spring"So we had to have voted a secular government so America would be our friend?(Original post by Josh93)
Honestly, my knowledge of the Quran is not nearly extensive enough to actually argue the point with you; what matters (as is the case with all religions) is interpretation not literal content anyway.
Having said that, I'm not even arguing that Islam is a particularly aggressive religion, purely that I don't think it should form the basis of government.
I had hoped that more secular governments would arise because let's face it the West does not seem to bond particularly well with Islamic states and I would really like to see us have better relations with the Middle East and Muslim world in general.
However if these new governments prove to be moderate, treat their people well and don't assume a position of automatic opposition to the West then fair play to them.
-
- Reputation:
- Benevolent Member
- Location: Hove
- Posts: 641
Re: What were people actually expecting from the "Arab Spring"America is not 'the West', not in and of itself at any rate and you didn't 'have' to do anything, I wish you had because I think relations betweens the Middle East and the rest of the world would be a lot more friendly if your system of governance was more secular.(Original post by NoraHTunis)
So we had to have voted a secular government so America would be our friend?
Secular government also permits change and modernisation of ideas whereas theological governments are tied to the principles and rules dictated by texts which are over a thousand years old, of questionable authenticity and are subject to the interpretation of religous leaders with their own motives.Last edited by Josh93; 29-05-2012 at 19:01. -
- Reputation:
- Overlord in Training
- Posts: 2,443
Re: What were people actually expecting from the "Arab Spring"Aren't really that happy in all honesty, most of the people in power are almost close to being sell outs.
We're just glad it's better than Ben Ali/Mubarak, who would oppress religion, with the new ruling, religion isn't oppressed.
Make no mistake, less your heels on your faith you aren't ever being accepted by America.(Original post by NoraHTunis)
So we had to have voted a secular government so America would be our friend?
Look at Turkey and its strict Secular model, like slaves they have tried so hard to get into the "Euro", listening to every whim of their Western Masters, yet still have no success in getting in. On the plus side though, Kemalism is dying out there.Last edited by Perseveranze; 30-05-2012 at 02:52. -
- Reputation:
- Thread Starter
- Banned
- Location: Huddersfield
- Posts: 3,209
Re: What were people actually expecting from the "Arab Spring"1. Selling out to who exactly? And what would be concidered not selling out?(Original post by Perseveranze)
1. sell outs.
2. oppress religion, with the new ruling, religion isn't oppressed.
3. Look at Turkey and its strict Secular model,
4. On the plus side though, Kemalism is dying out there.
2. Who's religion was oppression, and what isn't oppressed now?
3. And that's a BAD thing? Secularist models aren't as strict as the alternative(s) ...
4. Why? -
- Reputation:
- Exalted and Worshipped Member
- Posts: 968
Re: What were people actually expecting from the "Arab Spring"Reason Turkey hasn't been accepted is 1) very large population, which would cause problems and 2) Turkey has bad relations with Greece, and a requirment for the EU is to recognise officially every other EU country, but Turkey has never recognised Cyprus (I think that's the place), therefore their application hasn't moved on for years.(Original post by Perseveranze)
Aren't really that happy in all honesty, most of the people in power are almost close to being sell outs.
We're just glad it's better than Ben Ali/Mubarak, who would oppress religion, with the new ruling, religion isn't oppressed.
Make no mistake, less your heels on your faith you aren't ever being accepted by America.
Look at Turkey and its strict Secular model, like slaves they have tried so hard to get into the "Euro", listening to every whim of their Western Masters, yet still have no success in getting in. On the plus side though, Kemalism is dying out there. -
- Reputation:
- Junior Member
- Posts: 53
Re: What were people actually expecting from the "Arab Spring"Look, yeah(Original post by Josh93)
America is not 'the West', not in and of itself at any rate and you didn't 'have' to do anything, I wish you had because I think relations betweens the Middle East and the rest of the world would be a lot more friendly if your system of governance was more secular.
Secular government also permits change and modernisation of ideas whereas theological governments are tied to the principles and rules dictated by texts which are over a thousand years old, of questionable authenticity and are subject to the interpretation of religous leaders with their own motives.
I see where youre coming from, I honestly do.
But it's OUR country, you see?
If we want a religious government, why cant we have?
Aren't the west always promoting democracy,
then when the people vote for who they want, they don't like it.
Democracy is when the people say how their country is run,
I think America think Democracy is when THEY say how a country is run
-
- Reputation:
- Benevolent Member
- Location: Hove
- Posts: 641
Re: What were people actually expecting from the "Arab Spring"We're really just going round in circles here; I thought I'd already made it clear that I agree with you entirely regarding your right to choose how you are governed and by whom.(Original post by NoraHTunis)
Look, yeah
I see where youre coming from, I honestly do.
But it's OUR country, you see?
If we want a religious government, why cant we have?
Aren't the west always promoting democracy,
then when the people vote for who they want, they don't like it.
Democracy is when the people say how their country is run,
I think America think Democracy is when THEY say how a country is run
I am happy that you get to choose how you are governed - I am unhappy with the result of that decision, for all the reasons that I have previously given.
As for America, I have no idea how America feels but I think it is entirely possible to be pleased that you have democracy and simultaneously displeased at the result of your elections. -
- Reputation:
- Exalted Member
- Location: London
- Posts: 314
Re: What were people actually expecting from the "Arab Spring"http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/30...-tribute-leave"Christians Should "Convert, Pay Tribute, or Leave," Says Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood Candidate?" -
- Reputation:
- Junior Member
- Posts: 53
Re: What were people actually expecting from the "Arab Spring"Yeah ok, I agree with that. However i think the country is pleased, as they voted for it. But oh well, life moves on.(Original post by Josh93)
We're really just going round in circles here; I thought I'd already made it clear that I agree with you entirely regarding your right to choose how you are governed and by whom.
I am happy that you get to choose how you are governed - I am unhappy with the result of that decision, for all the reasons that I have previously given.
As for America, I have no idea how America feels but I think it is entirely possible to be pleased that you have democracy and simultaneously displeased at the result of your elections.
