[Agenda Suicide]

Just recently, people have associated patriotism with being racist, being hateful, stupid or aggressive towards those who are from elsewhere. People see immigration as an issue. Whilst a lot of the country is united and we get along just fine, there is clear division and tensions within the country.

You may call me radical but I for one am not too fussed about immigration (obviously being realistic and reasonable and not literally overflowing the country), I honestly would welcome in with open arms people from all around the world to share our country and what we have.

This was all going well until Britain seemed to develop a rather strange attitude. The attitude of apologists and and silent destruction. Rather than welcome these people to Britain with open arms and say "hey lovely to meet you, enjoy being British and what a lovely person you are" we instead seemed to be saying "Hey, welcome to Britain we don't want to appear offensive in anyway, shape or form so we will step down our own tradition and fun".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not confused, I'm not suddenly going to say this is a BNP registry call or blame the jews, I'm not. But does anybody else feel the same way as me in the fact that whilst I believe we should make a conscious effort to adapt and accept those who coming from different cultures, we must not legislate and neglect our own.

I'm not saying everybody coming in has to kiss a portrait of the Queen and recite our anthem, not at all, but atleast we can not forget what's good about what we have.

To be patriotic you don't need to be a certain colour, you don't need to be a certain religion or height or age or anything. You just need to find pride in the fact of where you're from and the community around you.


Patriotism is fun. It unites people, it makes people feel included and is inclusive in giving people a purpose, a community and a cause to rally behind. So why is it such an issue?

I admit, I'm not oblivious to the fact that groups like the BNP have hijacked the image and twisted it for their own sick ideals but still the point remains.


This is where I'm heading with my question and well hopefully the thread discussion, would everybody be a lot easier on immigration and would there be less tension if the country as a whole was a bit more united and patriotic or the fact that we simply accomodated for but not reinvented ourselves and the country for everybody that passes through?

I am fine with immigration and sharing everything we have and everything that's good about the country, as long as we keep everything that's good.


(I am fully aware that I've opened myself up to negs from just about everybody, some will see me as a radical who wants to accept too many immigrants and some will see my vision for a united Britain under patriotism to ease the tensions as somehow racist or something else ridiculous.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB5Nb...ayer_embedded#!

Skip to 2:50, all them flags waving, wow it feels good.

[navarre]

I pretty much agree. I think we as a country have a LOT to be proud of, and patriotism can be a good thing.

But the sad thing is, is that the vast majority of immigrants are decent people who want to come over here for a better life and experience life in one of the greatest countries in the world. It's just the minority who go out of their way to be offended, which is mostly, and let's be honest here, down to their own inferiority complex regarding their own nationality and background.

They have a right to be offended, but we shouldn't make accomodations for their precious feelings. They can be offended all they like, we shouldn't care an iota.

[tufc]

I totally agree. Anyone, of any ethnicity can be British, but us Brits have quite a distinct cultural identity. That cultural identity is not an identity comprised solely of tolerance towards other cultures: there are myriad traditions, and over a millennia of history that make up quite a distinct identity. I don't think immigration should be allowed if the prospective immigrant is unlikely to succeed here, but if someone is keen to become a Brit, and has a good chance of financially contributing more than they take out, then let them in.

[Agenda Suicide]

(Original post by navarre)
I pretty much agree. I think we as a country have a LOT to be proud of, and patriotism can be a good thing.

But the sad thing is, is that the vast majority of immigrants are decent people who want to come over here for a better life and experience life in one of the greatest countries in the world. It's just the minority who go out of their way to be offended, which is mostly, and let's be honest here, down to their own inferiority complex regarding their own nationality and background.

They have a right to be offended, but we shouldn't make accomodations for their precious feelings. They can be offended all they like, we shouldn't care an iota.

Exactly. I'm trying not to be ultra-nationalist in how I phrase everything because I genuinely am aware Britain isn't some squeaky clean nation. But we really shouldn't.


If somebody comes into your house, they are more than welcome to stay for a while if they need help or have nowhere to go, and you, accomodate the best you can for them, but you don't allow your own house rules to go under in exchange and to be polite.

[prog2djent]

Because people like Andrew Neather and the Guardian have influence.

[Blargh1]

I totally agree. I have nothing against any religion/race/ethnicity coming to Britain I just think it's depressing that they can't be asked to show gratitude in some way.

I get so envious of those countries that have a strong sense of identity and just wish we could too.

[TheHansa]

I agree, I think people who say they be shouldn't be patriotic incase we offend people o fother ethnicities are the real racists because their attitude says that they can't share in this countries culture and be proud of it aswell.

[SweetChilliSauce]

(Original post by Agenda Suicide)
Just recently, people have associated patriotism with being racist, being hateful, stupid or aggressive towards those who are from elsewhere. People see immigration as an issue. Whilst a lot of the country is united and we get along just fine, there is clear division and tensions within the country.

You may call me radical but I for one am not too fussed about immigration (obviously being realistic and reasonable and not literally overflowing the country), I honestly would welcome in with open arms people from all around the world to share our country and what we have.

This was all going well until Britain seemed to develop a rather strange attitude. The attitude of apologists and and silent destruction. Rather than welcome these people to Britain with open arms and say "hey lovely to meet you, enjoy being British and what a lovely person you are" we instead seemed to be saying "Hey, welcome to Britain we don't want to appear offensive in anyway, shape or form so we will step down our own tradition and fun".

Don't get me wrong, I'm not confused, I'm not suddenly going to say this is a BNP registry call or blame the jews, I'm not. But does anybody else feel the same way as me in the fact that whilst I believe we should make a conscious effort to adapt and accept those who coming from different cultures, we must not legislate and neglect our own.

I'm not saying everybody coming in has to kiss a portrait of the Queen and recite our anthem, not at all, but atleast we can not forget what's good about what we have.

To be patriotic you don't need to be a certain colour, you don't need to be a certain religion or height or age or anything. You just need to find pride in the fact of where you're from and the community around you.


Patriotism is fun. It unites people, it makes people feel included and is inclusive in giving people a purpose, a community and a cause to rally behind. So why is it such an issue?

I admit, I'm not oblivious to the fact that groups like the BNP have hijacked the image and twisted it for their own sick ideals but still the point remains.


This is where I'm heading with my question and well hopefully the thread discussion, would everybody be a lot easier on immigration and would there be less tension if the country as a whole was a bit more united and patriotic or the fact that we simply accomodated for but not reinvented ourselves and the country for everybody that passes through?

I am fine with immigration and sharing everything we have and everything that's good about the country, as long as we keep everything that's good.


(I am fully aware that I've opened myself up to negs from just about everybody, some will see me as a radical who wants to accept too many immigrants and some will see my vision for a united Britain under patriotism to ease the tensions as somehow racist or something else ridiculous.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB5Nb...ayer_embedded#!

Skip to 2:50, all them flags waving, wow it feels good.

I pretty much agree with this. Although I don't have much English blood in me (I'm part Italian and Russian and some of them have English ancestors), there's no reason not to wave the British flag just because you're not white. It's sad now that people will link being patriotic and nationalistic with being racist [they're two completely different things] because of the BNP and other far-right groups.

[travoot]

Completely agree with everything said in this thread so far. Political correctness has gone too far.

[Slosh]

The majority of British patriotism I hear is sarcastic or ironic. Pride about British made things breaking, pride about our trains being terrible, pride about still having a monarchy, pride about our favourite dishes being of foreign origin (ok curry as we know it originated in scotland but still). Those are pretty poor examples but the point still stands that lots of British patriotism is sarcastic

[Agenda Suicide]

(Original post by Slosh)
The majority of British patriotism I hear is sarcastic or ironic. Pride about British made things breaking, pride about our trains being terrible, pride about still having a monarchy, pride about our favourite dishes being of foreign origin (ok curry as we know it originated in scotland but still). Those are pretty poor examples but the point still stands that lots of British patriotism is sarcastic

That's only half the point though. People are sarcastic because they drown out the voices of those who are proud of being British.

Yeah we consist of sitting on Swedish furniture with Indian dishes on our German TV. But there is much more beyond what we import and export. We have a monarchy, debateable but some find pride in the fact we still find a workable solution to preserve a monarchy without having a ridiculously backwards system but instead a democracy.

Also being British is about being innovative, leading the way and for the small country that shouldn't have such an effect, still be a major palyer on the world stage.

[Slosh]

(Original post by Agenda Suicide)
That's only half the point though. People are sarcastic because they drown out the voices of those who are proud of being British.

Yeah we consist of sitting on Swedish furniture with Indian dishes on our German TV. But there is much more beyond what we import and export. We have a monarchy, debateable but some find pride in the fact we still find a workable solution to preserve a monarchy without having a ridiculously backwards system but instead a democracy.

Also being British is about being innovative, leading the way and for the small country that shouldn't have such an effect, still be a major palyer on the world stage.

Seeing as that's a good point, I'm going to revert to my view of "You should be proud of what you do, only then can you be proud of what you are". And "being born somewhere" is not something you do :P

[Annoying-Mouse]

I agree with you on patriotism. There's nothing wrong with loving your countries culture and celebrating it and it does unite people.

However, we should be able to realize not everyone loves British culture. I don't like it personally. Immigrants may be patriotic about their home countries culture and start communities around their home countries culture e.g. Chinatown. And there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. Why should we force someone to take part in our culture which they don't really get or particularly enjoy and restrict them from celebrating and partaking in their culture? That's the essence of multiculturalism.

[Blargh1]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
I agree with you on patriotism. There's nothing wrong with loving your countries culture and celebrating it and it does unite people.

However, we should be able to realize not everyone loves British culture. I don't like it personally. Immigrants may be patriotic about their home countries culture and start communities around their home countries culture e.g. Chinatown. And there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. Why should we force someone to take part in our culture which they don't really get or particularly enjoy and restrict them from celebrating and partaking in their culture? That's the essence of multiculturalism.

And that's the thing a lot of people get upset over, when this is taken even further to a level of not caring about the country that they live in or even actively dislike or insult somewhere that has allowed them to stay and (more often than not) given support to them.

Another, slightly dodgy, point is that if their countries were indeed so great, why leave? Not the best of points but you get the idea.

[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by Blargh1)
And that's the thing a lot of people get upset over, when this is taken even further to a level of not caring about the country that they live in or even actively dislike or insult somewhere that has allowed them to stay and (more often than not) given support to them.

Another, slightly dodgy, point is that if their countries were indeed so great, why leave? Not the best of points but you get the idea.

Why does it matter whether they care about Britain? And why can't they dislike Britain and express their dislike for it? People can have different opinions right? It doesn't mean there aren't good things about Britain, they probably do like somethings about Britain e.g. economic opportunities/healthcare system etc but they can also dislike some things and there isn't anything wrong with that.

Because Britain offers better economic opportunities? Your countries in a civil war? Your countries governments prosecutes you?

[Drapetomanic]

Celebrating the fact that you happened to be born in some arbitrary country is stupid. Claiming "British culture" is anything other than a fluid changing entity that has been, and will continue to be shaped by immigrants is stupid. Claiming the monarchy is anything other than an expensive historical relic is stupid. You're all stupid.

[henrysaunders1]

(Original post by Drapetomanic)
Celebrating the fact that you happened to be born in some arbitrary country is stupid. Claiming "British culture" is anything other than a fluid changing entity that has been, and will continue to be shaped by immigrants is stupid. Claiming the monarchy is anything other than an expensive historical relic is stupid. You're all stupid.

And what is wrong with celebrating that, Britain has done some fantastic things to the world (and some bad I'll accept) but surely we should be celebrating this.

And the monarchy is not expensive. Each person pays 50p a year to the monarchy and look at the economics rewards Britain gets out of it: thousands of jobs in London based around the monarchy, tourism and tourist stores. & you think your 50p can be better spent?

[Drapetomanic]

(Original post by henrysaunders1)
And what is wrong with celebrating that, Britain has done some fantastic things to the world (and some bad I'll accept) but surely we should be celebrating this.

And the monarchy is not expensive. Each person pays 50p a year to the monarchy and look at the economics rewards Britain gets out of it: thousands of jobs in London based around the monarchy, tourism and tourist stores. & you think your 50p can be better spent?

1) Britain's past consists of a bunch of people which have absolutely nothing to do with me.
2) 50p a year is a complete understatement, security and other costs aren't taken into account.
3) 'Jobs based around the monarchy', like what? If we abolished the Royal family we'd still have people visiting the palaces, people would still work there.
4) I think my 50p+ a year would be better spend on, I don't know, healthcare, education, emergency services, scientific research etc.

[Cannotbelieveit]

Agreed (for the most part)

Political Correctness is becoming way too significant in our society, and because of it we are destroying our own traditions, culture and national pride because we're afraid that we're being 'too racist'.

[Agenda Suicide]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
I agree with you on patriotism. There's nothing wrong with loving your countries culture and celebrating it and it does unite people.

However, we should be able to realize not everyone loves British culture. I don't like it personally. Immigrants may be patriotic about their home countries culture and start communities around their home countries culture e.g. Chinatown. And there shouldn't be anything wrong with that. Why should we force someone to take part in our culture which they don't really get or particularly enjoy and restrict them from celebrating and partaking in their culture? That's the essence of multiculturalism.

Well in my opinion we don't need to force them to do anything, they are more than welcome to embrace their culture and share it and that is fantastic, but if they aren't willing to even embrace ours, I have to wonder how one could defend it?

(Original post by Drapetomanic)
Celebrating the fact that you happened to be born in some arbitrary country is stupid. Claiming "British culture" is anything other than a fluid changing entity that has been, and will continue to be shaped by immigrants is stupid. Claiming the monarchy is anything other than an expensive historical relic is stupid. You're all stupid.

It's not celebrating where you are born. It's celebrating being part of the society and culture you are lucky enough to live in and be brought up in.

However I have no time for the immaturity of making semi-relevant points and tarnishing it off with name calling.