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Patriotism, immigration and why we're all so upset.

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    I think the problem lies with mediums like the sun making up rubbish like:
    "England shirts are being banned because 'muslims' are offended" (When in fact one pub banned all football shirts to stop people fighting over their silly little teams) Christmas being changed to winterville and other rubbish none of it true. This divides people. There are those that believe and use it as an excuse to be racist. Then the people who think immigrants really are that sensitive and pander to it. Then there's immigrants just stuck in the middle of all this who, for the most part, actually very grateful to this country and don't in anyway wan't to take away out patriotism but are made out to be ungrateful wingers because of lies written in some rag!
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    (Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
    Why does it matter whether they care about Britain? And why can't they dislike Britain and express their dislike for it? People can have different opinions right? It doesn't mean there aren't good things about Britain, they probably do like somethings about Britain e.g. economic opportunities/healthcare system etc but they can also dislike some things and there isn't anything wrong with that.

    Because Britain offers better economic opportunities? Your countries in a civil war? Your countries governments prosecutes you?
    You're right, nothings wrong with disliking a country, no matter where you're from but it just seems a bit discourteous to do especially if they gain so much from living in this country. As the OP suggests, it's this that makes us a bit upset, along with the fact that you seemingly can't promote patriotism, as a couple of ignorant people on this thread have already proven.

    On the point of why immigrants come to Britain, let's be honest, it's not civil war or prosecuting governments that cause people to come apart from a very small minority. If it is the economic opportunities, then there must be some note taken of the fact that immigrants are very lucky here in employment compared to the rest of the world
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    (Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
    Why does it matter whether they care about Britain? And why can't they dislike Britain and express their dislike for it? People can have different opinions right? It doesn't mean there aren't good things about Britain, they probably do like somethings about Britain e.g. economic opportunities/healthcare system etc but they can also dislike some things and there isn't anything wrong with that.

    Because Britain offers better economic opportunities? Your countries in a civil war? Your countries governments prosecutes you?
    It matters because the state is doing them a favour. We have no legal obligation to admit anyone who wants to come to a better way of life. We could be like Australia, and basicly turn everyone away who isnt of any use to us.

    I do not think it is too much to ask in return for the state and taxpayer funding your healthcare, safety, housing and much more in many cases, that you attempt to integrate and be a productive member of society.

    I think it is a bit ungrateful to be offered a better quality of life by a system, and litterally show no respect for it.
    Sure, have your opinions about the queen or whatever, But i think it is just pure ungratefulness to be helped out by britain only to attempt to undermine its heritage at every hurdle.

    If you were homeless, and a priest offered you a place to stay, would you start ****ting on his floor or wrecking the place? of course not, why should it be acceptable for the state to do somebody a favour and have it repaid through abuse and detrimental behaviour?
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    (Original post by Agenda Suicide)
    It's not celebrating where you are born. It's celebrating being part of the society and culture you are lucky enough to live in and be brought up in.
    Would you be so proud of British culture if you weren't British? Obviously not, you'd be proud of the positives inherent in whatever country you found yourself in. It's one thing to admire the achievements of a nation (as I do), but to only celebrate the achievements of a nation because you live in it is stupid.

    However I have no time for the immaturity of making semi-relevant points and tarnishing it off with name calling.
    The points I was making were directed at some of the posters in the thread.

    e.g

    (Original post by Agenda Suicide)
    We have a monarchy, debateable but some find pride in the fact we still find a workable solution to preserve a monarchy without having a ridiculously backwards system but instead a democracy.
    :rolleyes:

    Also being British is about being innovative, leading the way and for the small country that shouldn't have such an effect, still be a major palyer on the world stage.
    And I wonder why that is? Our glorious imperialist past perhaps?
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    I cannot accept patriotism. It insults my intelligence.
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    I cannot accept patriotism. It insults my intelligence.
    Says the Freemasonry conspiracy theorist.

    Just kidding.
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    (Original post by Martyn*)
    I cannot accept patriotism. It insults my intelligence.
    Nice argument right there.

    Essentially patriotism is an optimistic view of where you live combined with a sense of belonging with seemingly like-minded individuals who hold common values. There is nothing "insulting" about this. It is not compulsory, nor necessary to be happy, but just something that can, if done well, make people more content with their lot in life and the people around them.
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    I think the distinction beween patriotism and nationalism is very interesting, as well as a little blurred. Patriotism, so the etymology would suggest, is a devotion to your country, or fatherland. Nationalism is a devotion to your compatriots, and your shared culture.

    It is easy to see from that distinction that nationalism carries a greater deal of conservatism with it, at least as far as changing the makeup of the populace is concerned. Whilst patriots focus on the abstract concept of the 'country', nationalists devote themselves to that which comprises the nation. The country need not change, even if the population does. The same is not true of the nation. I think that that is why nationalists resist cultural change and immigration.

    Personally, I view patriotism as arbitrary and baseless, nationalism as dangerous.
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    (Original post by Blargh1)
    Nice argument right there.

    Essentially patriotism is an optimistic view of where you live combined with a sense of belonging with seemingly like-minded individuals who hold common values. There is nothing "insulting" about this. It is not compulsory, nor necessary to be happy, but just something that can, if done well, make people more content with their lot in life and the people around them.
    How can a sense of community be optimistic in and of itself? And I thought the celebration of a connection with other countrypeople who hold common values was the basis for nationalism, not patriotism? Celebrating the country as the nexus for those people and values is a little different, and that's what I thought patriotism entailed. Correct me if you think different.
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    the main problem is this when people grow up in asian/african countries their attitude is very shrude and cunning cause we need it to live in asia/africa. but in western and european countries the systems are so methodical and organised that immigrants misuse this and do not value or respect the system as they should.thus resulting in degradation of national culture and value
    *THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO ALL IMMIGRANTS BUT A FEW
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    Excellent post, OP. Couldn't have put it better really
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    How can a sense of community be optimistic in and of itself? And I thought the celebration of a connection with other countrypeople who hold common values was the basis for nationalism, not patriotism? Celebrating the country as the nexus for those people and values is a little different, and that's what I thought patriotism entailed. Correct me if you think different.
    Everything has a scale. What we're talking about is not ultra nationalism or jingoism but a greater sense of belonging within a community. This can be done on a community by community basis but IMO patriotism covers more people and gives an even bigger idea of being part of a group.
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    (Original post by Blargh1)
    Nice argument right there.

    Essentially patriotism is an optimistic view of where you live combined with a sense of belonging with seemingly like-minded individuals who hold common values. There is nothing "insulting" about this. It is not compulsory, nor necessary to be happy, but just something that can, if done well, make people more content with their lot in life and the people around them.
    What common values would these be?

    I'm saying that I cannot accept patriotism as an ideal. It is insulting because the potential end result of patriotism can be oppression, especially so when a nation has acheived its freedom.
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    (Original post by Drapetomanic)
    1) Britain's past consists of a bunch of people which have absolutely nothing to do with me.
    2) 50p a year is a complete understatement, security and other costs aren't taken into account.
    3) 'Jobs based around the monarchy', like what? If we abolished the Royal family we'd still have people visiting the palaces, people would still work there.
    4) I think my 50p+ a year would be better spend on, I don't know, healthcare, education, emergency services, scientific research etc.
    Ha! Well, you don't get a choice. Tough luck sonny.
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    I heartily advise George Orwell's essay The Lion and the Unicorn

    Especially the first section, it's one of the best collection of political thoughts I've ever read.

    "It needs some very great disaster, such as prolonged subjugation by a foreign enemy, to destroy a national culture. The Stock Exchange will be pulled down, the horse plough will give way to the tractor, the country houses will be turned into children’s holiday camps, the Eton and Harrow match will be forgotten, but England will still be England, an everlasting animal stretching into the future and the past, and, like all living things, having the power to change out of recognition and yet remain the same."
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    (Original post by Slosh)
    Seeing as that's a good point, I'm going to revert to my view of "You should be proud of what you do, only then can you be proud of what you are". And "being born somewhere" is not something you do :P
    But the irony with that argument is the people that spout it are normally proud of how tolerant and multicultural Britain is. Something which is not a personal achievement. Look at you with your EU flag thinking your progressive and what not.
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    (Original post by c471)
    It matters because the state is doing them a favour. We have no legal obligation to admit anyone who wants to come to a better way of life. We could be like Australia, and basicly turn everyone away who isnt of any use to us.

    I do not think it is too much to ask in return for the state and taxpayer funding your healthcare, safety, housing and much more in many cases, that you attempt to integrate and be a productive member of society.

    I think it is a bit ungrateful to be offered a better quality of life by a system, and litterally show no respect for it.
    Sure, have your opinions about the queen or whatever, But i think it is just pure ungratefulness to be helped out by britain only to attempt to undermine its heritage at every hurdle.

    If you were homeless, and a priest offered you a place to stay, would you start ****ting on his floor or wrecking the place? of course not, why should it be acceptable for the state to do somebody a favour and have it repaid through abuse and detrimental behaviour?
    While I agree with your main point, Britain's immigration system for non EU immigrants is as tough (or possibly tougher) than Australia's at the current moment
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    (Original post by Blargh1)
    Everything has a scale. What we're talking about is not ultra nationalism or jingoism but a greater sense of belonging within a community. This can be done on a community by community basis but IMO patriotism covers more people and gives an even bigger idea of being part of a group.
    So you regard the distinction between patriotism and nationalism as a difference of degree, rather than kind?

    I think your focus on the 'sense of belonging' is the root of that idea. A sense of belonging can come from either patriotic or nationalistic tendencies, but the idea of what you belong to is different. Nationalists feel a sense of kinship with those from their culture. Patriots feel a common identity vested in 'the country'. The sense of belonging is more immediate with nationalism than patriotism, as the ultimate source of that felt by the patriot is the same as the nationalist's, merely derived via the proxy of 'the country,' and thus more distant/abstract. If it were the case that these two concepts were defined in terms of that sense of belonging, you'd be right, but, as it is, I think that idea is illusory. You're looking at what the ideas do, rather than what they are. As such, I'd disagree that the difference is merely one of degree.
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    I think the distinction beween patriotism and nationalism is very interesting, as well as a little blurred. Patriotism, so the etymology would suggest, is a devotion to your country, or fatherland. Nationalism is a devotion to your compatriots, and your shared culture.

    It is easy to see from that distinction that nationalism carries a greater deal of conservatism with it, at least as far as changing the makeup of the populace is concerned. Whilst patriots focus on the abstract concept of the 'country', nationalists devote themselves to that which comprises the nation. The country need not change, even if the population does. The same is not true of the nation. I think that that is why nationalists resist cultural change and immigration.

    Personally, I view patriotism as arbitrary and baseless, nationalism as dangerous.
    You're completely correct in your final sentence. I live in London, there's people who I know who've migrated from other European countries, non-European countries and from other British regions. Why do nationalists place higher demands upon those who've migrated from outside the UK compared to those who've migrated from within the UK? Am I supposed to demand that a Yorkshiremen living in London adapt to 'our London lifestyle' and be grateful for the higher wages and standard of living he can attain here vs. Yorkshire? If not, why should I place the same requirements upon a Frenchman or an Egyptian?
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