[Blargh1]

(Original post by Martyn*)
What common values would these be?

I'm saying that I cannot accept patriotism as an ideal. It is insulting because the potential end result of patriotism can be oppression, especially so when a nation has acheived its freedom.

I know what you're trying to say and I understand why you think that but at the moment some feel patriotism is at too low a level and feel immigrants should at least feel British (or at least within a generation). Obviously, no-one here is arguing for very high levels of patriotism and I would get very insulted too if I felt that Britain became patriotic to a point of oppression.

(Original post by TurboCretin)
So you regard the distinction between patriotism and nationalism as a difference of degree, rather than kind?

I think your focus on the 'sense of belonging' is the root of that idea. A sense of belonging can come from either patriotic or nationalistic tendencies, but the idea of what you belong to is different. Nationalists feel a sense of kinship with those from their culture. Patriots feel a common identity vested in 'the country'. The sense of belonging is more immediate with nationalism than patriotism, as the ultimate source of that felt by the patriot is the same as the nationalist's, merely derived via the proxy of 'the country,' and thus more distant/abstract. If it were the case that these two concepts were defined in terms of that sense of belonging, you'd be right, but, as it is, I think that idea is illusory. You're looking at what the ideas do, rather than what they are. As such, I'd disagree that the difference is merely one of degree.

ah I didn't word that right, I understand the differences between them though. I would love to continue the debate btw, but the posts are becoming a bit TL;DR and I have a trillion exams coming up so I'm going to leave it for now It was good fun arguing though, and I hope you lose the debate

[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by c471)
It matters because the state is doing them a favour. We have no legal obligation to admit anyone who wants to come to a better way of life. We could be like Australia, and basicly turn everyone away who isnt of any use to us.

I do not think it is too much to ask in return for the state and taxpayer funding your healthcare, safety, housing and much more in many cases, that you attempt to integrate and be a productive member of society.

I think it is a bit ungrateful to be offered a better quality of life by a system, and litterally show no respect for it.
Sure, have your opinions about the queen or whatever, But i think it is just pure ungratefulness to be helped out by britain only to attempt to undermine its heritage at every hurdle.

If you were homeless, and a priest offered you a place to stay, would you start ****ting on his floor or wrecking the place? of course not, why should it be acceptable for the state to do somebody a favour and have it repaid through abuse and detrimental behaviour?

As long as they're employed and not committing any crimes, they're a productive member of society. The language they speak, their views on Britain, whether they segregate and create mini-communities based on their home countries etc should not be of concern to anyone. Mind your business is a good rule of thumb to follow.

Since when did criticizing something turn to "****ting on his floor or wrecking the place"? If the priest did things I disagree with, I'd state so maybe not to him but to others. You're not using the best of analogies.

[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by Blargh1)
You're right, nothings wrong with disliking a country, no matter where you're from but it just seems a bit discourteous to do especially if they gain so much from living in this country. As the OP suggests, it's this that makes us a bit upset, along with the fact that you seemingly can't promote patriotism, as a couple of ignorant people on this thread have already proven.

On the point of why immigrants come to Britain, let's be honest, it's not civil war or prosecuting governments that cause people to come apart from a very small minority. If it is the economic opportunities, then there must be some note taken of the fact that immigrants are very lucky here in employment compared to the rest of the world

This countries self-esteem is far too fragile if a couple of people not liking it makes you guys sad. As I said there are positive to this country obviously or they wouldn't come here but they can have more negatives than positives and highlight the negatives, there isn't nothing wrong with that.

[Brutal Honesty]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
As long as they're employed and not committing any crimes, they're a productive member of society. The language they speak, their views on Britain, whether they segregate and create mini-communities based on their home countries etc should not be of concern to anyone. Mind your business is a good rule of thumb to follow.

Since when did criticizing something turn to "****ting on his floor or wrecking the place"? If the priest did things I disagree with, I'd state so maybe not to him but to others. You're not using the best of analogies.

Why do they need to be employed? As long as they're not entitled to any state funds (as is already the case with non-EU migrants) I have no issue with people coming here. Conservatives who usually oppose state intervention in society have a hypocritical view on immigration policy, they want the government to intervene to stop the peaceful migration of people whereas the true conservative position would be no government limits/barriers to migration unless there is a valid security threat.

[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by Drapetomanic)
Would you be so proud of British culture if you weren't British? Obviously not, you'd be proud of the positives inherent in whatever country you found yourself in. It's one thing to admire the achievements of a nation (as I do), but to only celebrate the achievements of a nation because you live in it is stupid.

It isn't stupid but it isn't smart. It's neither. As humans we have a tendency to celebrate events that are meaningful to us. As a country, this would St George's day, Queen Diamond's jubilee, Christmas, Royal family weddings etc. As individuals, this could be things like our friends Birthdays, friends Weddings, parents weddings, friends birth of a child etc. What you're saying is we shouldn't celebrate those things because we wouldn't celebrate non-friends birthdays, non-friends weddings etc. So what if they're arbitrary? Who cares? So what if someone's birthday is due to luck? Everything doesn't have to be rational and lack of rationality doesn't imply irrationality.

(Original post by Brutal Honesty)
Why do they need to be employed? As long as they're not entitled to any state funds (as is already the case with non-EU migrants) I have no issue with people coming here. Conservatives who usually oppose state intervention in society have a hypocritical view on immigration policy, they want the government to intervene to stop the peaceful migration of people whereas the true conservative position would be no government limits/barriers to migration unless there is a valid security threat.

Oh, I forget some people were rich enough to not work.

[almalibre11111]

things are simple,legal immigration is cool illegal is not..patriotism is good as to the point they also recognize their own mistakes..the patriotism style where {because once upon a time some fellows won a war } think they are best nation ever ...just doesnt exist..

[ConnorB]

I will never EVER back down if someone told me I was being racist because I was flying my country's flag.

Hell, I'm not even British in terms of genetic Heritage. (Indian, Irish, Swedish American, Canadian hybrid.... I know.)

Patriotism is what brings people together, unity, common ground with every citizen. If we lose it, then I guess we are just a spineless faceless country, open for people to reap Economic benefit, and nothing more.

EDIT: Oh look neggers and runners.

[Drapetomanic]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
It isn't stupid but it isn't smart. It's neither. As humans we have a tendency to celebrate events that are meaningful to us. As a country, this would St George's day, Queen Diamond's jubilee, Christmas, Royal family weddings etc. As individuals, this could be things like our friends Birthdays, friends Weddings, parents weddings, friends birth of a child etc. What you're saying is we shouldn't celebrate those things because we wouldn't celebrate non-friends birthdays, non-friends weddings etc. So what if they're arbitrary? Who cares? So what if someone's birthday is due to luck? Everything doesn't have to be rational and lack of rationality doesn't imply irrationality.

You've stupidly missed the point. Celebrating a bank holiday or a friends birthday =/= being patriotic/nationalist.

A sense of pride you get from living in, or being brought up in a certain country is completely baseless. Whereas celebrating something like Christmas is a means of having fun and continuing on an old tradition because it brings you closer to others (or some other bull****). Am I a Christian or indeed a pagan? No. Would I be a patriotic Irishman if I got pissed on St. Paddy's day? No.

[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by Drapetomanic)
You've stupidly missed the point. Celebrating a bank holiday or a friends birthday =/= being patriotic/nationalist.

A sense of pride you get from living in, or being brought up in a certain country is completely baseless. Whereas celebrating something like Christmas is a means of having fun and continuing on an old tradition because it brings you closer to others (or some other bull****). Am I a Christian or indeed a pagan? No. Would I be a patriotic Irishman if I got pissed on St. Paddy's day? No.

Patriotism isn't about pride. It's about love (devotion) for your country. And celebrating this love.

[Drapetomanic]

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
Patriotism isn't about pride. It's about love (devotion) for your country. And celebrating this love.

My point stands.

[Agenda Suicide]

(Original post by Drapetomanic)
Would you be so proud of British culture if you weren't British? Obviously not, you'd be proud of the positives inherent in whatever country you found yourself in. It's one thing to admire the achievements of a nation (as I do), but to only celebrate the achievements of a nation because you live in it is stupid.


The points I was making were directed at some of the posters in the thread.

e.g





And I wonder why that is? Our glorious imperialist past perhaps?

Come back when you're not insulting people and just using smileys as if that somehow makes up for the deficiency in your posts.

(Original post by SnoochToTheBooch)

I am talking about being patriotic, not nationalistic, there is a key difference and would change the whole idea of my post entirely.

[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by Drapetomanic)
My point stands.

No, it doesn't because patriotism (my and wiki's definition) is also about having fun and continuing on an old tradition because it brings you closer to others.

[SnoochToTheBooch]

(Original post by Agenda Suicide)
I am talking about being patriotic, not nationalistic, there is a key difference and would change the whole idea of my post entirely.

whats the difference?

[Agenda Suicide]

(Original post by SnoochToTheBooch)
whats the difference?

Quite a lot, look it up for yourself and do some reading.

Wayne Rooney when he plays for England is patriotic, Hitler was a nationalist. That should give you a hint.

[MagicNMedicine]

Well I have massive pride in Britain and I never come across an issue with people saying its offensive.

I don't know why all these people go round saying "you can't say your proud to be British cos people say its racist". If people say you're racist you're probably being racist. I always talk up Britain and have loads of clothes, stuff in my house with (usually subtle) union jack or national symbols on, and nobody's ever had a problem with it.

It's not an issue about immigration either, some of my family were immigrants, lots of immigrants are proud of Britain as well.

[Drapetomanic]

(Original post by Agenda Suicide)
Come back when you're not insulting people and just using smileys as if that somehow makes up for the deficiency in your posts.

(Original post by Annoying-Mouse)
No, it doesn't because patriotism (my and wiki's definition) is also about having fun and continuing on an old tradition because it brings you closer to others.

Let's quote wiki shall we?

"Patriotism is a devotion to one's country, excluding differences caused by the dependencies of the term's meaning upon context, geography and philosophy. In a generalized sense applicable to all countries and peoples, patriotism is a devotion to one's country."

"It is a related sentiment to nationalism"

How about dictionary.com?

"devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty."

No mention of having fun and continuing on old traditions. Patriotism is a devotion to one's country, devotion to a society, just because you happen to live in it, or to have lived in it.

Nationalism is different because it is strictly political i.e. "Nationalism is a political ideology that involves a strong identification of a group of individuals with a nation." As wiki says, they are related sentiments, and in my opinion completely baseless, ignorant and dangerous.

[Drapetomanic]

(Original post by Agenda Suicide)
Quite a lot, look it up for yourself and do some reading.

Wayne Rooney when he plays for England is patriotic, Hitler was a nationalist. That should give you a hint.

What tactics did use to Hitler gain votes? How do the Chinese maintain social order and promote their imperialistic expansion into Africa? Appealing to patriotism and national pride.

[Spaz Man]

We are the only nation that has attempted patriotism without nationalism and it just doesn't work as good-natured as our intentions may be.

[Annoying-Mouse]

(Original post by Drapetomanic)



Let's quote wiki shall we?

"Patriotism is a devotion to one's country, excluding differences caused by the dependencies of the term's meaning upon context, geography and philosophy. In a generalized sense applicable to all countries and peoples, patriotism is a devotion to one's country."

"It is a related sentiment to nationalism"

How about dictionary.com?

"devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty."

No mention of having fun and continuing on old traditions. Patriotism is a devotion to one's country, devotion to a society, just because you happen to live in it, or to have lived in it.

Devotion = love. And thus patriotism is celebrating this love. Just like Birthday's are devotions to friends. Anyway, this is all semantics.

[Niassuh]

I don't think patriotism would help immigration issues in Britain. Lots of second generation immigrants consider themselves British but that doesn't stop some people hating on them.
It could even worsen the situation, immigrants wouldn't be "real Britons" according to some people.
Besides, how would you foster patriotism? It's something that declines with every generation, how would you get young people to be patriotic?