[Dragonfly07]

(Original post by xumanah)
because its in wikipedia, it must be true?

That's a stupid post. Wikipedia has references at the bottom of its pages that you could look up yourself. Surely you could say that about anything and then believe nothing, including the existence of israel and palestine altogether?

Well if you don't believe articles perhaps you would want to ask an actual Israeli. I used to live right next to an arabic village in israel where we used to buy olives and olive oils and also pittas that they baked. There are many palestinian arabs that own businesses, work and live freely in israel.

[snozzle]

(Original post by fuze-mo25)
why would Palestine sign a deal when their land is being occupied?? ... WTH do U expect that is their country n it was unlawfully taken.

Firstly there was no nation called 'Palestine' which had 'it's' country carved up. There was the British Palestinian Mandate (previously just a part of the Ottoman Empire) which contained a variety of ethnic and religious groups, and the British plan was to partition this into an Arab state and a Jewish state, and there was nothing unlawful about that same as when India was partitioned.

There was no Palestinian country which belonged to Arabs in the first place so how can it have been taken when 'it' never existed?

Anyway forgetting the history for a movement. It is up to Palestinian Arabs what they do, they can choose peace and life or ongoing conflict and death.

[NoraHTunis]

(Original post by snozzle)
If Palestine is a tiny spec why is Islam so obsessed with it?

Because of Jerusalem and Bethelehem you idiot.

[snozzle]

(Original post by NoraHTunis)
Because of Jerusalem and Bethelehem you idiot.

So it's about Islamic supremacism then? I thought it was humanitarian concern for the Palestinians?

[NoraHTunis]

(Original post by snozzle)
So it's about Islamic supremacism then? I thought it was humanitarian concern for the Palestinians?

Jerusalem and Bethlehem are Palestine.

[Some random guy]

(Original post by prog2djent)
How do these people get in then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

They were already there before the majority of Jewish Israelis. They didn't get in, Israel just wasn't able to completely kick out all the arabs when they took over.

[snozzle]

(Original post by Some random guy)
They were already there before the majority of Jewish Israelis. They didn't get in, Israel just wasn't able to completely kick out all the arabs when they took over.

Unable or unwilling? Get you facts straight.

[Spaz Man]

(Original post by prog2djent)
How often does this occur from the palestinian side?

Israel created Hamas in a wholly successful endeavour to split Palestinian resistance and political leadership. What Israel did not anticipate was that the people of Gaza, in a form of self-destructive protest vote, might actually elect Hamas in an election independent EU observers considered fair.

That put Israel in a position of having to find excuses not to talk to the Palestinian leadership. Despite which a truce held for much of 2008, with no rockets being launched for many months. Faced, yet again, with the prospect of having to talk peace, Israel (not Hamas) broke the ceasefire in November to ensure the rockets resumed.

The upshot was the avoidable, unnecessary, brutal invasion of Gaza. Numerous war crimes were committed. Nobody on the planet is remotely persuaded by the IDF's "investigation" of the IDF concluding there were no war crimes. This little exercise in fatuous duplicity, which would not convince a five year old, serves only to make the IDF leadership and the new Israeli government look as stupid as they almost certainly are.

[prog2djent]

I've heard it before, how Israel Created hamas, I know they supported them to destabalise the strength of the PLO, but how did they exactly create them.

[snozzle]

(Original post by Spaz Man)
Israel created Hamas in a wholly successful endeavour to split Palestinian resistance and political leadership. What Israel did not anticipate was that the people of Gaza, in a form of self-destructive protest vote, might actually elect Hamas in an election independent EU observers considered fair.

That put Israel in a position of having to find excuses not to talk to the Palestinian leadership. Despite which a truce held for much of 2008, with no rockets being launched for many months. Faced, yet again, with the prospect of having to talk peace, Israel (not Hamas) broke the ceasefire in November to ensure the rockets resumed.

The upshot was the avoidable, unnecessary, brutal invasion of Gaza. Numerous war crimes were committed. Nobody on the planet is remotely persuaded by the IDF's "investigation" of the IDF concluding there were no war crimes. This little exercise in fatuous duplicity, which would not convince a five year old, serves only to make the IDF leadership and the new Israeli government look as stupid as they almost certainly are.

It's not true that no rockets were fired during the bi-lateral ceasefire in 2008, some were fired just less. You also fail to notice that from the start of 2008 the number of rocket attack went up by orders or magnitude after Hamas started bringing them in from Egypt.

You mention the Gaza 'war' but that was over in 2009. Why is Hamas still firing rockets then? Your narrative than only Israel has agency and responsibility here and that Hamas just 'reacts', is irrational as both sides are human actors hence both can take responsibility and make decisions.

Your idea that Israel somehow 'wants' Hamas to keep attacking makes no logical sense. Israel has pulled out of Gaza and demolished the settlements, it has nothing to gain by having its citizens terrorists every few days by rocket attacks, and nothing to gain from having Hamas in charge of Gaza. There was a chance for peace when Israel withdrew in 2006 (or was in 05?) but Hamas blew it. Hamas want conflict or the people of Gaza will have no use for them.

[snozzle]

(Original post by prog2djent)
I've heard it before, how Israel Created hamas, I know they supported them to destabalise the strength of the PLO, but how did they exactly create them.

It's in keeping with the anti-semitic historical theory that Jews control everything behind the scenery.

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by snozzle)
So it's about Islamic supremacism then? I thought it was humanitarian concern for the Palestinians?

Yeah, we are obligated to help oppressed Muslims wherever they may be, but Palestine has priority due to the holy land and Islamic significance.

[snozzle]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Yeah, we are obligated to help oppressed Muslims wherever they may be, but Palestine has priority due to the holy land and Islamic significance.

Firstly what is an oppressed Muslim?

Secondly not all Palestinians are Muslims.

Why do oppressed Muslims matter more than oppressed non-Muslims?

Thirdly why is 'Palestine' Holy just because Islam says it is? What does 'Holy' mean? Is there any part of the former Dar al-Islam which is not considered Holy in some way?

[Perseveranze]

(Original post by snozzle)
Firstly what is an oppressed Muslim?

Secondly not all Palestinians are Muslims.

Why do oppressed Muslims matter more than oppressed non-Muslims?

Thirdly why is 'Palestine' Holy just because Islam says it is? What does 'Holy' mean? Is there any part of the former Dar al-Islam which is not considered Holy in some way?

1. Dictionary the word "oppression".

2. Why do you think lol? Muslims should help anyone oppressed, however there is a thing called priority. Most countries prioritize based on citizenship or ethnicity/nationality etc. But Islam doesn't recognize that kind of stuff, and instead does it based on our rights of brotherhood.

Though I believe (I might be wrong, need to confirm) that Dhimmi (Non-Muslim under Islamic protection) would get greater priority.

3. It's a holy land because Muslims believe Muhammad(pbuh) ascended there. We also believe that's where Jesus(pbuh) was also taken to the heavens, and where many of the Islamic prophets were sent to.

And no, only Jerusalem (3rd holiest) as part of former Dar Al-Islam is considered holy. Before that is Mecca/Medina.

[x.Hana.x]

(Original post by Rhadamanthus)
Well there you have it. The most pushed-around anti-Semitic slander there is - the one responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jews - is alive and well.

Before anything else, if anyone qoutes me, qoute the whole thing please, because its annoying when people take it out of context.

You complete idiot, qoueting me out of context-again. Well other people did it before, not you, but now you have. This was me REPLYING to someone who said Muslims were persecuting jews_so if what I said is antisemitic(that its not just jews who were persecuted, that jews persecuted christians once too during and after christ, even thouvgh it doesnt mean ALL jews are like that.), then why isnt what that person said about muslims islamophobic? And why isnt it the same thing.

Because it is. SO HERE WE ARE. Yes jews did do that to christians, thats fact, but antisemitism is only if I said all jews were like that and incited hatred- and I didnt. At all.
All jews are not like that, niether most.
And so these are YOUR DOUBLE STANDARDS.
BECAUDE IF SAYING A FACT LIKE THAT IS ANTISEMITIC, WHY IS SAYING FICTION SUCH AS WHAT SOME PREVIOUS POSTS SAID tHAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS, OR MUSLIMS TEACHING ARE VIOLENT AND OPPRESSIVe, and this very thread, bashing muslims and saying theey are obseessed with zionism, etc, why is THAT NOT ISLAMOPHOBIC ANTHE SAMR DAM THING?

But it is, but there are so many bigots and racists.
Seems to me, the only people obseessed with zionism is the starter of this thread.
And the topic of zionism was obviously just an excuse to start YET another thread in where people can bash muslims anf islam.
Ie the various posts saying muslim men kill theit daughters and this is the norm for muslims, that we blow people up, are terrorists etc.
Which could be easily said for jews such as the various jewish past terrotist group such as hangah and thr jewish agency
But it is not said because it is deemed antisemitic.
So why are zionists obsessed with antisemitism. Just accuse anyone of that(antisemitism) and get away with anything.
Geunter Grass wtote a poem about isreal and irans nuclear debate.
He said nothing of jews or muslims.
But was declared antisemitic, and netenyahu even went far as to ban him from the country.
Um, wow. And he was only saying the truth that both iran anf israels nuclear facilities should be checked out, because israel an west were forming double standards over that point.
So its like some people will call anything and everything antisemitic.
Even when no mention of the jewish people, or hatred against jews is mentioned.

Notice I said SOME people, and did not stereotypi alise the whole jewish race or all zionists into this. Unlike many people on this thread who do so for muslims, ojews, etc
So basically the whole concept of this thread is bigoted.
And obviously replies to this, if any, will be how antisemitic, ignorant, terrorising muslim I am. Or how im totally beside the point, well the point I am trying to make in answer to thr qoute up there ks that this is not being antisemitic since im not saying thingd against jews but fact, just as is fact that there are terrorists who are extremist muslims and this is in no way the real teaching of jslam, since that arabic word literally means peace.

Im just saying, if that is antisemitic, then why isnt the actual and direct inciting of hatred against islam by believing the media and bigots stereotypr that jjst because there are some extremists blowing people up and killing there family members etc, as is demostrted on this thread, why isnt THIS islamophobic? The same thing.
And as for the antisemitism during hitlers time? Open your eyes. Its happeninv again. And proplr are doing, as many of you guys are-against another religion and people- muslims.
But your like, because muslims ARE like this.
Yeah, thats what the nazis said about jews.
And then this happened; millions were wiped out or ethnicly cleansed.
And it all started from the build up like this. The anti jewish sentiment then in the thirties mirros that of today except islamophobic...Oh and near a worldwide economic crisis.
And even thrn, people im sure called antisemitism, or it wasnt called that at that time, as a creation of imagination. Like people do of islamophobia now.
But it (antisemtism) turned out very real didnt it. As may this.

[Rhadamanthus]

(Original post by x.Hana.x)
Before anything else, if anyone qoutes me, qoute the whole thing please, because its annoying when people take it out of context.

You complete idiot, qoueting me out of context-again. Well other people did it before, not you, but now you have. This was me REPLYING to someone who said Muslims were persecuting jews_so if what I said is antisemitic(that its not just jews who were persecuted, that jews persecuted christians once too during and after christ, even thouvgh it doesnt mean ALL jews are like that.), then why isnt what that person said about muslims islamophobic? And why isnt it the same thing.

Because it is. SO HERE WE ARE. Yes jews did do that to christians, thats fact, but antisemitism is only if I said all jews were like that and incited hatred- and I didnt. At all.
All jews are not like that, niether most.
And so these are YOUR DOUBLE STANDARDS.
BECAUDE IF SAYING A FACT LIKE THAT IS ANTISEMITIC, WHY IS SAYING FICTION SUCH AS WHAT SOME PREVIOUS POSTS SAID tHAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS, OR MUSLIMS TEACHING ARE VIOLENT AND OPPRESSIVe, and this very thread, bashing muslims and saying theey are obseessed with zionism, etc, why is THAT NOT ISLAMOPHOBIC ANTHE SAMR DAM THING?

But it is, but there are so many bigots and racists.
Seems to me, the only people obseessed with zionism is the starter of this thread.
And the topic of zionism was obviously just an excuse to start YET another thread in where people can bash muslims anf islam.
Ie the various posts saying muslim men kill theit daughters and this is the norm for muslims, that we blow people up, are terrorists etc.
Which could be easily said for jews such as the various jewish past terrotist group such as hangah and thr jewish agency
But it is not said because it is deemed antisemitic.
So why are zionists obsessed with antisemitism. Just accuse anyone of that(antisemitism) and get away with anything.
Geunter Grass wtote a poem about isreal and irans nuclear debate.
He said nothing of jews or muslims.
But was declared antisemitic, and netenyahu even went far as to ban him from the country.
Um, wow. And he was only saying the truth that both iran anf israels nuclear facilities should be checked out, because israel an west were forming double standards over that point.
So its like some people will call anything and everything antisemitic.
Even when no mention of the jewish people, or hatred against jews is mentioned.

Notice I said SOME people, and did not stereotypi alise the whole jewish race or all zionists into this. Unlike many people on this thread who do so for muslims, ojews, etc
So basically the whole concept of this thread is bigoted.
And obviously replies to this, if any, will be how antisemitic, ignorant, terrorising muslim I am. Or how im totally beside the point, well the point I am trying to make in answer to thr qoute up there ks that this is not being antisemitic since im not saying thingd against jews but fact, just as is fact that there are terrorists who are extremist muslims and this is in no way the real teaching of jslam, since that arabic word literally means peace.

Im just saying, if that is antisemitic, then why isnt the actual and direct inciting of hatred against islam by believing the media and bigots stereotypr that jjst because there are some extremists blowing people up and killing there family members etc, as is demostrted on this thread, why isnt THIS islamophobic? The same thing.
And as for the antisemitism during hitlers time? Open your eyes. Its happeninv again. And proplr are doing, as many of you guys are-against another religion and people- muslims.
But your like, because muslims ARE like this.
Yeah, thats what the nazis said about jews.
And then this happened; millions were wiped out or ethnicly cleansed.
And it all started from the build up like this. The anti jewish sentiment then in the thirties mirros that of today except islamophobic...Oh and near a worldwide economic crisis.
And even thrn, people im sure called antisemitism, or it wasnt called that at that time, as a creation of imagination. Like people do of islamophobia now.
But it (antisemtism) turned out very real didnt it. As may this.

I am not fighting through this barely legible wall of text to discern your points. You said that the Jews "hung Jesus on the cross". This is a lie - the original anti-Semitic lie led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jews and the persecution of millions. The Vatican have apologised for saying it's true, why can't you?

[x.Hana.x]

(Original post by Perseveranze)
Yeah, we are obligated to help oppressed Muslims wherever they may be, but Palestine has priority due to the holy land and Islamic significance.

Israel carries significance for islam, christianity and judaism.
Obviously what hamas and palestinian leaders re doing by bombing et. is wrong, since it is unislamic- war its different, yes, but bombing innocent civilians is not allowed i.n islam, that is not war since you are killing people who are not on the battle field, indiscriminately, who have nothing to do with it, if you kill one man in islam, regardless of religion or race, it is worse than killing all of mankind.
Obviously what netnyahu and israeli government are doing wrong as well, by striking and bombing innocent civilians of palestine. This is noy in accordance with jewish teaching either, which is thou shalt not kill, though shalt not steal etc.
Yes they have option of eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth- but not a whole set of teeth for a tooth, sight for an eye a is shown.

But you cant expect any leader or politicians to be true representatives of a religion.
Thats why they are poloticians.
You cant blame all israelis or all palestinians.
They are just normal people living and trying to get on with life. Unfortuneatly they are puppets of both leaders and politicians game of greed.
If we took all the politicians and netenyahu and hamas etc and put them on a battlefield, then wed see the real battle. They are cowards, so both use their people to pay theitr own blood for their greed and crimes.
It really in reality isnt a war between islam andvjudaism. People just make it, want it to be.
After violence really has no religion, whatever you say.
Anyone can say the shahadh, that means they are muslim now, then go and blow themselves and prople up. Thats why you can blame a religion, it isnt balanced ot fair to do so.
Im not saying you are blaming anyone, thats just a reply to others on this thread. :-)

[x.Hana.x]

Because im not going to just lie and bow to the pressur as the vatican obviously did just to please others- it is WRITTEN in the christian bible , thone that the vatican believes in also, that some jews demanded the execution of jesus and took him to the romans. Pilot likewise didnt believe that jesus was a bad man and deserved death like the jews said, but if he didnt do as they demanded, he was outnumbered against them, so he washed his hands of it and left the overall decision to the jews.
I am in no way saying that what hitler did to the jews by spreading the e fact that just because jews hung jesus on the cross, was right, in fact the holocaust was unbelievably horrific and cruel. But he used a fact, and abused it by telling everyone that jews were the problem and demonstrating that ALL jews deserved punishment for something that happened years ago.
Obviously he was wrong, and this was racism.
And I dont think like this of jews, I think they are human beings like everyone else, I dont treat anyone differeny because of religion and race. I am not inciting hatred against jews, the semites, so I am not antisemetic. I am just saying , in answer to someones question about persecution, that jews also persecuted christians, and christians also persecuted jews, and vice versa all three ways with muslims too. Dony eraser history just because you dont like it, I mean aftetr all, jews dont believe jesus was a prophet so why would you be offended if I say a long time ago that people who happened to be jewish hung jesus christ on thr cross. It doesnt mean I hate jews at all, or think any less of them, its bygones be bygones, or wish to annihilate millions i. Gas camps and otherr gruesome measures that the nazis employed.

Once again please qoute it all..

(Original post by Rhadamanthus)
I am not fighting through this barely legible wall of text to discern your points. You said that the Jews "hung Jesus on the cross". This is a lie - the original anti-Semitic lie led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Jews and the persecution of millions. The Vatican have apologised for saying it's true, why can't you?

[ShredMaster]

(Original post by uxa595)
I don't like zionists one bit, regardless of if they are jews or not. I also don't mind jews (given they are not strong zionism supporters).

While i do not like zionists, i still think Jews should be able to live in Israel if they wish, but they shouldn't be preventing Muslims from entering Israel nor be destroying Palestinian houses and building over them.
Also, they should **** off out of Palestine and stop occupying it with their military.

Saying only Muslims are obsessed with zionism is also wrong. Anyone with a little common sense will tell you what Israel with their zionist agenda is doing is wrong.

Took the words right out of my mouth. +1

[ANIGAV]

(Original post by Dragonfly07)
That's a stupid post. Wikipedia has references at the bottom of its pages that you could look up yourself. Surely you could say that about anything and then believe nothing, including the existence of israel and palestine altogether?

Well if you don't believe articles perhaps you would want to ask an actual Israeli. I used to live right next to an arabic village in israel where we used to buy olives and olive oils and also pittas that they baked. There are many palestinian arabs that own businesses, work and live freely in israel.

I agree, references are there but I doubt people who post such crap even bother because I doubt they care to be frank.

Are you a palestinian? Ah I do miss freshly baked pittas.