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Doctor who helped CIA find Bin Laden jailed for 30 years by Pakistan for treason

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    (Original post by anaplian)
    Identifying Pakistan as duplicitous and corrupt isn't racist, it's just a fact; i have many Pakistani friends who agree. Why this comes as a surprise to anyone i'm not sure.
    No it's stupid and ignorant. For example many Asians consider Britain duplicitous and corrupt, yet people from Britain would find offense to this.

    If I were an American and you were to say that about America it would seem offensive. By choosing to use the world Pakistan you are referring to a country and insulting it inhabitants. If you say the pakistani government you exclude your everyday Pakistani. Pakistan is corrupt, but not duplicitous. There is an actual scale in existence for corruption and it can be calculated. So you can say Pakistan is corrupt with certainty. Surprisingly the UK is number 16 for transparency, and it has been dropping yearly. Pakistan is 134 , Bangladesh is 120 on transparency. There is no absolute scale of duplicitous so that's a matter of opinion. Thus I would find that offensive as your using emotive language to describe a country. Treachery can no be put on an absolute scale that is internationally agreed on. So calling it treacherous would be foolish, that being said you can call the government corrupt all you like - that's completely true.

    Treacherous - well that is debatable and as it is a matter of opinion it indeed is offensive. It's like me saying Britain is a treacherous rogue state. Indeed Britain has committed MANY act of treachery, many would still find that offensive.
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    (Original post by de_monies)
    Or perhaps they value their national sovereignty. If there was a US terrorist within the USA and targeting Pakistan, and the US forces weren't able to find them, would it then be OK for Pakistan to start drone attacking the US?

    It's the US who's an absolute hypocritical nation
    If Pakistan was an upright nation, then yeah, sure.

    But the fact is Pakistan is a nation that helps the Taliban, have proved numerous times that they are totally untrustworthy and have in multiple cases failed to act on intelligence. They refuse to share intelligence more often than not and are an increasingly, alarmingly, conservative Islamic nation. With all that in mind, military action that invades their sovreignty should be expected if they fail to act on their own soil. They are playing both sides, they don't like the result, maybe they should declare for a single side.
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    (Original post by Dragoon87687587)
    No it's stupid and ignorant. For example many Asians consider Britain duplicitous and corrupt, yet people from Britain would find offense to this.

    If I were an American and you were to say that about America it would seem offensive. By choosing to use the world Pakistan you are referring to a country and insulting it inhabitants. If you say the pakistani government you exclude your everyday Pakistani. Pakistan is corrupt, but not duplicitous. There is an actual scale in existence for corruption and it can be calculated. So you can say Pakistan is corrupt with certainty. Surprisingly the UK is number 16 for transparency, and it has been dropping yearly. Pakistan is 134 , Bangladesh is 120 on transparency. There is no absolute scale of duplicitous so that's a matter of opinion. Thus I would find that offensive as your using emotive language to describe a country. Treachery can no be put on an absolute scale that is internationally agreed on. So calling it treacherous would be foolish, that being said you can call the government corrupt all you like - that's completely true.

    Treacherous - well that is debatable and as it is a matter of opinion it indeed is offensive. It's like me saying Britain is a treacherous rogue state. Indeed Britain has committed MANY act of treachery, many would still find that offensive.
    You need to calm down.

    1) I did not say that Britain wasn't corrupt.

    2) I thought it was pretty obvious that i was referencing the Pakistani government, you seem to be arguing over semantics. Do you really think that i personally think all the people in Pakistan are corrupt? Get real.

    Moreover, of course duplicity and corruption is subjective when you're talking about governments in general. My point is that when you're dealing with a government that is generally corrupt it should not come as a surprise when they fail to catch the world's most wanted man. Whether that failure was deliberate or not is a matter for personal opinion, personally i think it's the latter; i think they're just inept.
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    (Original post by anaplian)
    You imply that Pakistan wasn't able to find Bin Laden.
    You obviously know nothing about the country. It's not a fact Pakistan was able to find Osama. You don't know anything about Pakistan so shut up

    Ever heard of FATA - obviously not

    I mean you don't know anything about Pakistani politics and you think you are able to comment on such things. The government isn't in control of all of pakistan. The huge complex, barb wires and high security. That's pretty normal for your everyday pakistani guy with cash. I mean my family house in Pakistan has even more security than that. We have guards outside our gate and security cameras everywhere. You know nothing about the country. It's actually funny that you think you do as well.

    The government is corrupt, that's a fact as it is not refutable. It being treacherous is an opinion. In the eyes of many we are considered treacherous.
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    (Original post by anaplian)
    You need to calm down.

    1) I did not say that Britain wasn't corrupt.

    2) I thought it was pretty obvious that i was referencing the Pakistani government, you seem to be arguing over semantics. Do you really think that i personally think all the people in Pakistan are corrupt? Get real.

    Moreover, of course duplicity and corruption is subjective when you're talking about governments in general. My point is that when you're dealing with a government that is generally corrupt it should not come as a surprise when they fail to catch the world's most wanted man. Whether that failure was deliberate or not is a matter for personal opinion, personally i think it's the latter; i think they're just inept.
    ok - i agree with you. Sorry I've spent a lot of time in doors and lately been reading a lot of racist threads and found a number of racists websites all over the internet. So vent up frustration. Lately any attack on pakistan I consider a personal attack, just because online forums you find tones of people saying similar stuff to satisfy their racist ideologies.

    After a while you start thinking anyone who isn't of pakistani origin wan'ts to destroy you ^^

    There are even LEGAL sites up there where people happily say this sort of stuff then use it to justify really disgusting opinions. Since a few of the stuff you said were similar to them I automatically jumped to the conclusion you were no different.
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    (Original post by Dragoon87687587)
    ok - i agree with you. Sorry I've spent a lot of time in doors and lately been reading a lot of racist threads and found a number of racists websites all over the internet. So vent up frustration. Lately any attack on pakistan I consider a personal attack, just because online forums you find tones of people saying similar stuff to satisfy their racist ideologies.

    After a while you start thinking anyone who isn't of pakistani origin wan'ts to destroy you ^^

    There are even LEGAL sites up there where people happily say this sort of stuff then use it to justify really disgusting opinions. Since a few of the stuff you said were similar to them I automatically jumped to the conclusion you were no different.

    It's cool man don't worry, racism disgusts me too.
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    (Original post by anaplian)
    You imply that Pakistan wasn't able to find Bin Laden.
    OK, lets look at what the USA has failed to do. After WW2, the US border agency was still more advanced than Pakistan's is today, and the USA have the luxury of only having Canada and the Southern American countries that directly border them ie: you have to fly otherwise

    Then consider that many Nazis flew in to the USA after WW2, and it took the advanced USA decades to find the Nazis. I reckon the guys who took part in killing millions, and ordering their destruction is worse than a guy who killed 3000 in the US, and countless more in his own country, and surrounding nations

    Does that then mean that the USA was complicit or incompetent? If we follow the USA's logic, then yes it does but the USA will never say that. This is the hypocrisy

    Then there's the fact that Pakistan is heavily mountainous and heavily corrupt ie: it's not the governments fault, if certain soldiers are corrupt. Do we blame the UK army for the actions of a few?

    Also, consider that terrorists do not target "free" nations that aren't terrorising their country, so when the USA starts dictating to the world what to do,starts bombing countries down, takes away democracies for the sake of oil companies, put in place puppet governments etc... it's got to be expected that there is going to be resentment and some people will go to the very extremes and become terrorists

    Bin Laden was an indirect making of the USA
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    (Original post by Steevee)
    If Pakistan was an upright nation, then yeah, sure.
    And you seriously think that the USA is an upright nation? Again, the hypocrisy is there

    (Original post by Steevee)
    But the fact is Pakistan is a nation that helps the Taliban
    The USA have helped dictators in to power, who have terrorised more people than the Taliban ever could. Though of course, the Taliban is only an issue because they attack Western forces

    (Original post by Steevee)
    have proved numerous times that they are totally untrustworthy
    You mean like the USA?

    (Original post by Steevee)
    and have in multiple cases failed to act on intelligence
    Like the USA? Where are those WMD's? If the USA is such an advanced nation, they should have checked their intelligence

    (Original post by Steevee)
    They refuse to share intelligence more often than not
    You mean like the USA when they start burning CIA tapes? Do you see the general theme yet?

    (Original post by Steevee)
    and are an increasingly, alarmingly, conservative Islamic nation
    I explained above why many people have resentment against the USA, and this will arise in more hardline governments. Besides, a lot of people are looking to the party of Tehreek-E-Insaaf but of course, you have a warped mind of what the Pakistanis actually want...

    (Original post by Steevee)
    With all that in mind, military action that invades their sovreignty should be expected if they fail to act on their own soil.
    But Pakistan has been acting. I can't tell you the amount of counter terror units I saw in Pakistan when I went there

    (Original post by Steevee)
    They are playing both sides
    You mean like the USA? Where they say things like "We don't support nuclear, but we'll secretly sell you it" ie: the Vanunu case

    (Original post by Steevee)
    they don't like the result
    You mean like the USA? Where they'll support democracies in one country, and authoritarian dictatorships in another country?

    (Original post by Steevee)
    maybe they should declare for a single side.
    I think the USA should do that as well
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    (Original post by de_monies)
    OK, lets look at what the USA has failed to do. After WW2, the US border agency was still more advanced than Pakistan's is today, and the USA have the luxury of only having Canada and the Southern American countries that directly border them ie: you have to fly otherwise

    Then consider that many Nazis flew in to the USA after WW2, and it took the advanced USA decades to find the Nazis. I reckon the guys who took part in killing millions, and ordering their destruction is worse than a guy who killed 3000 in the US, and countless more in his own country, and surrounding nations

    Does that then mean that the USA was complicit or incompetent? If we follow the USA's logic, then yes it does but the USA will never say that. This is the hypocrisy

    Then there's the fact that Pakistan is heavily mountainous and heavily corrupt ie: it's not the governments fault, if certain soldiers are corrupt. Do we blame the UK army for the actions of a few?

    Also, consider that terrorists do not target "free" nations that aren't terrorising their country, so when the USA starts dictating to the world what to do,starts bombing countries down, takes away democracies for the sake of oil companies, put in place puppet governments etc... it's got to be expected that there is going to be resentment and some people will go to the very extremes and become terrorists

    Bin Laden was an indirect making of the USA
    No-where have i said that Pakistan was complicit.

    They were perfectly capable of finding him, there was just no impetus. Pakistan has one of the largest armies in the world, they would arguably have the resources to find a man like Bin Laden outside of Pakistan. If you think they weren't capable of finding him inside their own country then you're pretty naive. This has nothing to do with capability and everything to do with a government that either didn't want to find him, or was/is so crippled internally by corruption they can't. Admitting that doesn't imply complicity, it just draws attention to the fact that the country has problems with it's administration.

    This is just in the context of Pakistan, i'm not going to play the 'my country's better than yours'. If we did that then Britain would lose just on the slave trade.
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    (Original post by anaplian)
    No-where have i said that Pakistan was complicit.
    No but the USA did

    (Original post by anaplian)
    They were perfectly capable of finding him, there was just no impetus. Pakistan has one of the largest armies in the world, they would arguably have the resources to find a man like Bin Laden outside of Pakistan. If you think they weren't capable of finding him inside their own country then you're pretty naive
    How do we explain how Nazis have lived inside the USA for decades before being caught. If a country like the USA can't do it, then why do you expect a country like Pakistan to do it?

    (Original post by anaplian)
    This has nothing to do with capability and everything to do with a government that either didn't want to find him, or was/is so crippled internally by corruption they can't.
    If you make that argument, then it is also possible to apply that argument to the USA and the Nazi problem. However I do not deny that there are corrupt officials within government

    (Original post by anaplian)
    Admitting that doesn't imply complicity, it just draws attention to the fact that the country has problems with it's administration.
    This is true, but the USA never seems to look at the hypocrisy within it's own administration

    (Original post by anaplian)
    This is just in the context of Pakistan, i'm not going to play the 'my country's better than yours'. If we did that then Britain would lose just on the slave trade.
    I'm not trying for that as well. What I'm getting at is that the USA has been completely hypocritical with their words, and if the USA can't find a few Nazis, then how the hell do they expect Pakistan to find out where Bin Laden is?
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    (Original post by de_monies)
    No but the USA did


    How do we explain how Nazis have lived inside the USA for decades before being caught. If a country like the USA can't do it, then why do you expect a country like Pakistan to do it?


    If you make that argument, then it is also possible to apply that argument to the USA and the Nazi problem. However I do not deny that there are corrupt officials within government


    This is true, but the USA never seems to look at the hypocrisy within it's own administration



    I'm not trying for that as well. What I'm getting at is that the USA has been completely hypocritical with their words, and if the USA can't find a few Nazis, then how the hell do they expect Pakistan to find out where Bin Laden is?

    Your analogy is seriously flawed, i'm sitting in my chair laughing my head off at the moment because you seem to have a penchant for Nazis and the US. Ok fine, good for you, the US is bad at catching Nazis - that doesn't change the fact that Pakistan is also bad at catching Islamic terrorists (who frankly, insult the good name of Islam). I don't really see the point in trying to draw a comparison between Pakistan and the US, both are obviously equally bad at catching bad people. Everyone knows the the American government is hypocrisy defined and if they don't they don't deserve to have an opinion, but that's not really what we're trying to discuss here....
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    Surely if an American citizen secretly provided sensitive information to Pakistani intelligence agencies, they would be sentenced heavily in America? I don't see what's surprising about this. I know that Bin Laden is (was) kind of a big deal, but that doesn't mean that the USA gets to ignore international boundaries and go over the heads of governments in the regions where they choose to involve themselves.
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    (Original post by de_monies)
    And you seriously think that the USA is an upright nation? Again, the hypocrisy is there


    The USA have helped dictators in to power, who have terrorised more people than the Taliban ever could. Though of course, the Taliban is only an issue because they attack Western forces


    You mean like the USA?


    Like the USA? Where are those WMD's? If the USA is such an advanced nation, they should have checked their intelligence


    You mean like the USA when they start burning CIA tapes? Do you see the general theme yet?


    I explained above why many people have resentment against the USA, and this will arise in more hardline governments. Besides, a lot of people are looking to the party of Tehreek-E-Insaaf but of course, you have a warped mind of what the Pakistanis actually want...


    But Pakistan has been acting. I can't tell you the amount of counter terror units I saw in Pakistan when I went there


    You mean like the USA? Where they say things like "We don't support nuclear, but we'll secretly sell you it" ie: the Vanunu case


    You mean like the USA? Where they'll support democracies in one country, and authoritarian dictatorships in another country?



    I think the USA should do that as well
    No sir, I do not. But I trust them to a far greater extent than I trust Pakistan.

    There you go, you know the reason. The US work for the West, generally speaking the people who don't want to kill us, opress our people and bring in dogmatic, dark ages law systems. If they are less than upstanding in the pursuit of such a course I'm far less likely to worry.

    :rolleyes:

    And I can;t tell you the amount of reports I see about the Afghan Taliban somehow finding themselves with new weapons and training around the Pakistani border etc. Like I said, Pakistan are playing a game, and breaking the rules.

    Oh dear, you are a funny one.
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    Pakistan were probably hiding Bin Laden anyway, they couldn't give a hoot whether he was killed or not.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17188120
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    This is what happens when you have President Pantywaist in charge.
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    (Original post by Guy Secretan)
    Terrorism has killed a lot of innocent people in Pakistan not just in the USA. The reason they had to invade the country violate its sovereignty is because the Pakistan army could not be trusted to capture him. It would never happen in USA or the uk because we would not harbour an international terrorist and fail to arrest them.
    The USA has taken decades to capture nazis. No one say talks about that.. Though I guess Bin Laden is talked about, because he was a direct threat to the USA
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    The only rule dictating America's foreign policy and intelligence strategy is this: that it is beneficial to their foreign interests. All ethics aside, that is the one criterion.

    As for trusting Pakistan, I would not. The ISI have been double-crossing the USA since they arrived in Afghanistan 10 days after 9/11. There is a reason that the USA cannot launch successful drone strikes *and* tell the Pakistanis - it is because every time they do, the targets disappear. It's been going on for years. However, I have no doubt the USA would do that if in a similar position; it's just about interests.


    This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App
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    (Original post by JJames)
    I read that as Doctor Who helped CIA find Bin Laden. (It's been a long day)

    I hope he does get granted citizenship though.
    Ha, I totally did that too. I was thinking it was going to be some troll/joke post...
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    (Original post by JJames)
    I read that as Doctor Who helped CIA find Bin Laden. (It's been a long day)

    I hope he does get granted citizenship though.
    Same.
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    (Original post by de_monies)
    The USA has taken decades to capture nazis. No one say talks about that.. Though I guess Bin Laden is talked about, because he was a direct threat to the USA
    de_monies, you are coming across very strangely. You seem to focus your efforts on imparting a partisan, anti-American view, and you keep mentioning the holocaust, and Nazis. Why are you doing this? I've been to Pakistan, I know the ISI and their counter-terrorism efforts. This is a discussion about Pakistan, not the USA.

    You assume most ridiculous airs, and should inform yourself with greater care, instead of casting ridiculous assertions. You have implied a connection, in this thread, between OBL and the Nazis, and you have also implied that the USA hasn't been pursuing Nazis across the globe (obviously lacking the support of a wholly pro-Semitic Congress, clearly). Your focus on the USA, your deflecting of questions and assertions towards the USA are perfectly representative of the issues we face. And the talk about Nazis, and the Holocaust? Well, to me that rings a little too much of Ahmedinejad. If I wanted the opinions of a stooge I'd give the buggers a ring.


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