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Is homosexuality a mental illness?

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    (Original post by chefdave)
    I'm open to the possibility that not wanting to have sex with the opposite sex is a type of disorder. If someone had no sexual urges whatsoever (i.e not necessarily gay) I'd say they're suffering from a genuine biological problem that may require treatment.
    Why?
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    Yes, but in today's society both the words "mental" and "illness" have negative connotations attached to them, so if you said this it would probably be perceived as an insult. I blame television.
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    *yawn* no it is not a mental illness.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    I'm open to the possibility that not wanting to have sex with the opposite sex is a type of disorder. If someone had no sexual urges whatsoever (i.e not necessarily gay) I'd say they're suffering from a genuine biological problem that may require treatment.
    If you want to psychopathologise masses of people, then sure; considering that 25% of males is a good estimate of the number who have acted on same-sex attraction at some point, you're going to find it difficult to say it's fundamentally disordered.

    A few of the guys I've been with were heterosexual in the ordinary sense of the word, had a bit of a fling (without regrets, I would emphasise), but had a romantic orientation towards women, and a preference for the kinds of dynamic you get in opposite-sex couples. When you get down to these sexual-romantic distinctions, attraction but not primary preference, the biological/psychopathological argument falls apart.

    Left handedness is a perfectly good analogy; it is not common, but that doesn't mean it's abnormal or undesirable. The superstition of the past that associated it with satanic possession and sinister goings on is that same kind of nonsense you had against homosexuality.

    Your train of thought is a dead end, if you value principles of basic decency, tolerance, humanism and reason. On the other hand, if your agenda is to attempt to lend scientific legitimacy to a pre-existing view based on your interpretation of the will of a bronze age deity...
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    I'm open to the possibility that not wanting to have sex with the opposite sex is a type of disorder. If someone had no sexual urges whatsoever (i.e not necessarily gay) I'd say they're suffering from a genuine biological problem that may require treatment.
    Two separate issues entirely. If I were a caveman, and I had a wife and it was my established domestic situation, I would nothave a problem procreating with her. Living as I do in a 21st century urban civilisation, I suppose having to settle, and not being aware of alternatives, is less of an issue.

    And cavemen probably weren't hung up about messing around with their fellow caveblokes because monotheistic brutality and oppression hadn't yet established its poison in the human psyche.
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    (Original post by mmmpie)
    Why?
    I don't know. Lets put it this way: when a pretty girl walks past in a skimpy outfit I have to use of sinew of my being just to stop myself from gorping at her with my tongue hanging out, I suspect that the overwhelming majority of men experience similar inclinations to a greater or lesser degree. If it came to light that a certain % of non-gay guys just didn't find women attractive I'd be asking what exactly is wrong with them.

    I'm not saying they're inferior people, but if someone's sexual preferences deviate from the norm it's not unreasonable to ask "why?"

    Would you say necrophilia is a mental disorder?
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    (Original post by TieMeUp)
    Two separate issues entirely. If I were a caveman, and I had a wife and it was my established domestic situation, I would nothave a problem procreating with her. Living as I do in a 21st century urban civilisation, I suppose having to settle, and not being aware of alternatives, is less of an issue.

    And cavemen probably weren't hung up about messing around with their fellow caveblokes because monotheistic brutality and oppression hadn't yet established its poison in the human psyche.
    :rolleyes: Sure, if religion wasn't around to "poison" our collective subconscious I expect the majority of men would be engaging regularly in homosexual relations. It's not that the mere thought of it is repellent or anything.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    :rolleyes: Sure, if religion wasn't around to "poison" our collective subconscious I expect the majority of men would be engaging regularly in homosexual relations. It's not that the mere thought of it is repellent or anything.
    Actually I don't think it is. Many of the guys with whom I went to high school experimented, without feeling tainted or disgusted. Even if they decided it wasn't for them, they didn't feel like it was a permanent mark of shame.

    The range of adolescant male sexual behaviour is very varied, depending on social context, the availability of willing females, opportunities, and so on. Most of my early sexual experiences were with heterosexual males, in a very non-heavy kind of sense.

    Would the majority of men had a same-sex experience (like mutual masturbation, that kind of thing) in their life? I suspect not. But it's clearly a very significant minority; good studies show around 25%, my anecdotal experience would suggest higher, but what I'm saying is that being "repelled" by the "mere thought" is what I observed in the guys who went off were closet homos and ended up being ridiculous sluts on the gay scene.

    Those of us who were kind of nerdy gay guys, or comfortable with out sexuality, or simply experimented, simply got on with our lives as normal. Then again, I went to a private school specifically founded on the values of the enlightenment, on reason and decency and logic, not the messed up code of the Bronze Age middle east.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    I don't know. Lets put it this way: when a pretty girl walks past in a skimpy outfit I have to use of sinew of my being just to stop myself from gorping at her with my tongue hanging out, I suspect that the overwhelming majority of men experience similar inclinations to a greater or lesser degree. If it came to light that a certain % of non-gay guys just didn't find women attractive I'd be asking what exactly is wrong with them.

    I'm not saying they're inferior people, but if someone's sexual preferences deviate from the norm it's not unreasonable to ask "why?"

    Would you say necrophilia is a mental disorder?
    Your lack of empathy doesn't make something pathological :fyi:

    One of my best friends identifies as asexual but homoromantic - he has a civil partner and they've been together for about 12 years I think. Some people are complicated, that doesn't mean there's something wrong with them.

    And asking "why" is not the same as asking "what's wrong with" something either.

    I would say that exclusive necrophilia is pathological, since there is an exclusive desire for a partner of a kind which can never be legitimately fulfilled, which is detrimental to the person doing the desiring - you can argue that on this basis homosexuality was a mental disorder, but not that it presently is. Necrophilia in the broader sense, experiencing an attraction to the dead without precluding attraction to other categories of people, is not necessarily pathological unless there is also an impulse control issue - by analogy, I experience an attraction to athletic blondes, this is only a pathology if I can't stop myself from bonking the unwilling.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    :rolleyes: Sure, if religion wasn't around to "poison" our collective subconscious I expect the majority of men would be engaging regularly in homosexual relations. It's not that the mere thought of it is repellent or anything.
    When men are not made to feel ashamed of their sexuality, of experimental thoughts or feelings that may not define their later sexual orientation, they generally grow up to be healthy human males.

    When their education and social upbringing are based on a messed up moral code from a bronze age book filled with lies and unverifiable claims, when it is based fundamentally on shame and feelings of worthlessness, you see weird bullying and sexual abuse.

    At my school, based on enlightenment principles and rationality, normal experimentation by boys and girls, no sense of experiementing a few times being something either shameful, or defining, or wrong if you liked it.

    At the nearby hardcore Catholic and Anglican boarding schools, they couldn't go a year without yet another bullying scandal that almost always involved violent sodomisation with objects and sexual abuse. I hate even typing that, it disgusts me, but it pretty much illustrates the damage that comes from inculcating teenagers with intense feelings or guilt and worthlessness at such a formative and important period of their development.
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    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    Well, there are certain things we can ponder over...


    The United States currently prohibits men who have sex with men from donating blood "because they are, as a group, at increased risk for HIV, hepatitis B and certain other infections that can be transmitted by transfusion."[152] The UK[153] and many European countries have the same prohibition.[152]

    That's a lot of people missing out on receiving a potential lifeline
    Lets see here. Only a tiny percentage of people not donating blood? Don't really see a problem here. And hasn't the UK legalised homosexual blood donations? :holmes:

    But, I don't think you can necessarily call homosexuality a mental illness, that's going a bit far. I don't agree that the person should be suspended for attempting to help Homosexuals to psychologically get over their problems.
    Actually, why should they treat for something which isn't a problem in the first case?

    Contradictory statement here though. If you are referring to as homosexuality being a problem and a psychiatrist "treating" it, then that is indirectly saying it is in fact a mental illness. That is what they are there for, you know, treating "mental problems".
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    @ChefDave

    It now seems clear that my initial suspicion, that you are attempting to obtain scientific cover for pre-existing supernatural propositions is probably on the money.

    I suppose this is progress of a sort; you understand that supernatural explanations are ****ing ridiculous and simply beyond the pale of credibility in a society that is becoming less credulous and more rational everyday.

    It won't work; anyone with a decent moral education from their parents and school, with a basic understanding of science, of humanitarianism, decency, will see through this bull**** in about 3 seconds. Those who give it serious credence are the types who would probably be the credulous, anti-human bigots of yesteryear anyway.

    Thank goodness that at least on this issue, common sense and decency prevailed and we can get on with our lives, have relationships with other humans of the same gender, and not constantly fear that a church inquisition is about to knock on our door and drag us away from treatment at best and execution at worst.

    It comes down to this; have you no shame, sir? Have you no decency? At long last, after persecuting generation after generation of guys who felt same sex attraction, damaging the psyche and sexuality of heterosxuals, keeping us in pig ignorant superstituion and fighting almost every scientific advancement with brutal suppression and lies, always wrong in the judgement of history, can you not at long last take a good hard look at yourself?

    A head shake and a sigh is pretty much all I have for you people at this point.
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    (Original post by TieMeUp)
    @ChefDave

    It now seems clear that my initial suspicion, that you are attempting to obtain scientific cover for pre-existing supernatural propositions is probably on the money.

    I suppose this is progress of a sort; you understand that supernatural explanations are ****ing ridiculous and simply beyond the pale of credibility in a society that is becoming less credulous and more rational everyday.

    It won't work; anyone with a decent moral education from their parents and school, with a basic understanding of science, of humanitarianism, decency, will see through this bull**** in about 3 seconds. Those who give it serious credence are the types who would probably be the credulous, anti-human bigots of yesteryear anyway.

    Thank goodness that at least on this issue, common sense and decency prevailed and we can get on with our lives, have relationships with other humans of the same gender, and not constantly fear that a church inquisition is about to knock on our door and drag us away from treatment at best and execution at worst.

    It comes down to this; have you no shame, sir? Have you no decency? At long last, after persecuting generation after generation of guys who felt same sex attraction, damaging the psyche and sexuality of heterosxuals, keeping us in pig ignorant superstituion and fighting almost every scientific advancement with brutal suppression and lies, always wrong in the judgement of history, can you not at long last take a good hard look at yourself?

    A head shake and a sigh is pretty much all I have for you people at this point.

    You're giving me far too much credit by suggesting my modus operandi was to achieve "scientific cover for pre-existing supernatural propositions". My thought process went more like this: hear a controversial story on C4, hmmm that may be a good TSR topic, actually I agree that homosexuality is abnormal, start a thread and see what TSRers have to say. Also you're coming across as a bit paranoid by suggesting that heterosexuality is a 5000 year old conspiracy concocted by bronze age ideologues. Has it ever occurred to you that the majority of men just prefer women? Occam's razor strikes again!
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    (Original post by TieMeUp)
    When men are not made to feel ashamed of their sexuality, of experimental thoughts or feelings that may not define their later sexual orientation, they generally grow up to be healthy human males.

    When their education and social upbringing are based on a messed up moral code from a bronze age book filled with lies and unverifiable claims, when it is based fundamentally on shame and feelings of worthlessness, you see weird bullying and sexual abuse.

    At my school, based on enlightenment principles and rationality, normal experimentation by boys and girls, no sense of experiementing a few times being something either shameful, or defining, or wrong if you liked it.

    At the nearby hardcore Catholic and Anglican boarding schools, they couldn't go a year without yet another bullying scandal that almost always involved violent sodomisation with objects and sexual abuse. I hate even typing that, it disgusts me, but it pretty much illustrates the damage that comes from damaging teenagers with intense feelings or guilt and worthlessness.
    It's not the job of the school to promote sexual emperimentation like some weird 1960's American cult. Schools are there to provide a service, that service being the impartial dissemination of knowledge about the outside world. If a student does have a particular problem I'm not saying it shouldn't be dealt with, but the idea that schools should be actively endorsing open sexuality demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what education is for. It's the equivalent of asking secondary schools to favour one particular political party over another, we don't do it because we recognise it's biased.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    You're giving me far too much credit by suggesting my modus operandi was to achieve "scientific cover for pre-existing supernatural propositions". My thought process went more like this: hear a controversial story on C4, hmmm that may be a good TSR topic, actually I agree that homosexuality is abnormal, start a thread and see what TSRers have to say. Also you're coming across as a bit paranoid by suggesting that heterosexuality is a 5000 year old conspiracy concocted by bronze age ideologues. Has it ever occurred to you that the majority of men just prefer women? Occam's razor strikes again!
    Your strawman and deliberate mischaracterisation is even less impressive than organised religion.

    On the other hand, an organised 5,000 year programme to execute, maim, imprison and mentally and physically torture people with same-gender attractions, is highly sinister considering many of these people couldn't even read, many did not even know that they lived on a planet, and yet people with education and power made them criminals and punished them, more fuel for the fire of their religious madness and control-freak tendencies (and so typical of the Church that so many of them were sexual deviants who would conclude of a colleague, "He might be a child molester and convicted rapist, but at least he's not a faggot".

    This is the mentally ill behaviour that is the logical outcome of bizarre siupernatural belief systems. It does not proceed from logic and reason, it cannot lead to logic and reason.

    In addition to this ongoing 5,000 year criminal conspiracy to persecute, physically and mentally damage gay people, falsely accused straight people, curious and bisexual, and pretty much anyone else the church felt like burning or ducking in the pond that day, it had a parrallel programme of emotional manipulation and psychological white-anting on its adherants designed to destroy their indepdence, their sense of health, their self-regard, so that a 45 year old purported virgin and actual child molester, who had never had any real human relationships, who had never studied anything other than made up beliefs and torturously reasoned dogmas, was actually considered adequate to give married couples relationship advice, to lecture people about how to live their lives.

    Here you were trying to drive a wedge between straight guys who are not mentally hung up about the sex lives of gay men, and me or gay guys generally, by insinuating we don't believe in the existence of heterosexuality. It won't work because it's not only ludicrously nonsensical, but their views tend to be based on common human decency and logic, not on the kind of throwaway, laughable attempt at emotional manipulation, or in fact anything they'll see on whichever side on a StudentRoom forun.

    At some point all I can think is, don't you ever get tired of being so mendacious, so stupid, and so vindictive? Doesn't it tell you something about your life, your mental stability, your sense of proportion, that you have such a singular focus on this issue? That is not for me to answer; the last mud stains of your influence on the legal system are being washed away, your credibility is shot, people are never coming back to the churches.

    If I were religious, I'd say Amen.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    It's not the job of the school to promote sexual emperimentation like some weird 1960's American cult. Schools are there to provide a service, that service being the impartial dissemination of knowledge about the outside world. If a student does have a particular problem I'm not saying it shouldn't be dealt with, but the idea that schools should be actively endorsing open sexuality demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what education is for. It's the equivalent of asking secondary schools to favour one particular political party over another, we don't do it because we recognise it's biased.
    More strawmen. We had thorough but tasteful sex education, and schools are not exactly in a position to stop two guys ****ing each other off during a sleep over, or two girls groping each other during a school camp. Of course there was no promotion of particular types of sexual activity, but I'm guessing deep down you feel that anything other than telling 'em to do it missionary, using a calendar for birth control, is a "radical 1960s experiment".

    I know that it's weird and scary if schools are giving information that leads their children to make good decisions about safe sex, to be provided with solid, scientific information, along with general ethical and moral instruction, about healthy sexuality, about reciprocity, about teaching the children to treat people with respect, and so on.

    Clearly that is absolute hell compared to teaching them next to nothing or even nothing about sexual health and STD protection, that instead of sexuality being a normal and enjoyable part of life it's a minefield filled with shame and self-loathing (and this is just if you're straight!), and God will sentence you to actually be tortured, eternally, if you were to have sex with someone at school and then step in front of a bus before they reached the safety of the confession booth and the expiation of their sins that conveniently can only come from a particular franchise of Christiainity. That is clearly so much more rational and logical.

    Considering I know two people from other private schools around the centre of Sydney who committed suicide due to struggles with their sexuality, both at Catholic non-boarding schools, and countless bullying and sexual deviance scandals and pedophile teachers at religious schools, I expect my parents conluded that protecting me and arming me with accurate information was more important than supernatural ****e overriding instincts against handing your sons over to pedophiles. I'm eternally grateful they did, it was a very good decision, rational, and I don'/t know anyone at school who got pregnant or an STD (so a big contrast to the Catholic school system in New South Wales)

    I'm wondering, do you ever comment on academic threads? It would be so Catholic if you're a 50 year old dude sitting at home commenting on homosexual threads on a student message board. It would all fit together perfectly.

    Anyway, time to throw in the towel; like dealing with someone who is mentally ill, you can start to get caught up in their madness, rather than properly addressing it and de-escalating the situation. I don't have the energy or inclination to deal with people who question my very existence (or perhaps I'm in league with the devil and chose t be gay to upset the natural order). You reach a point where you realise that they are no longer a direct threat to your physical safety and soon won't be to my legal and social standing, and so the best way to deal with it is treat it the way I'd treat a Klansman's insistence on being allowed to debate his crazy ideas.

    Good night/day, sir
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    I don't know. Lets put it this way: when a pretty girl walks past in a skimpy outfit I have to use of sinew of my being just to stop myself from gorping at her with my tongue hanging out, I suspect that the overwhelming majority of men experience similar inclinations to a greater or lesser degree. If it came to light that a certain % of non-gay guys just didn't find women attractive I'd be asking what exactly is wrong with them.

    I'm not saying they're inferior people, but if someone's sexual preferences deviate from the norm it's not unreasonable to ask "why?"

    Would you say necrophilia is a mental disorder?
    just because not all men feel that way doesnt mean they have a mental illness. omg what's wrong with you? that's a sick suggestion.
    actually i'd say that that's pretty desperate.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Yeh. I like the Fresh Prince of Bel Air, so I am not a racist.

    Anyway, using your logic then not wanting to have children would be a mental illness...
    :zomg: UR A RACIST!!!!!!1111
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    (Original post by Bobo1234)
    There's a tonne of human acts which stand in the way of procreation, would you class the wish to use condoms, to remain abstinent until marriage (without the guarantee that you'll actually ever GET married) or the decision to get a vasectomy as symptoms of mental illness? If not, then argument: refuted.

    EDIT: Anyone who feels the need to neg this clearly logical post: come at me bros. Or do you not feel like quoting me to try to justify why you think I'm wrong?
    Well, what you describe are lifestyle choices, and as far as I'm aware, being gay isn't a lifestyle choice, so they're not really in the same bracket. Maybe that's why some have taken exception to your post. :dontknow:
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    No. Mental illness does not exist, rather it is the label we give to those thoughts and behaviours so outside our comfort zone that we refuse to accept them as legitimate. Homosexuality is a perfectly good example of this. Society didn't accept it, so it was an illness, and then society did accept it, so it stopped being called one. Nowhere was any reasonable argument made either way. It was just people trying to medicalise their personal disgust.

    "It stops procreation." So does being a priest, but of course this is socially acceptable.
    "It can be harmful." Horse riding is more dangerous, but of course this is socially acceptable.

    And anyway, those two reasons which people give are arbitrary. So what if someone wishes to harm themselves or not procreate? You may value procreation and the lack of harm, but your values are no more objective than theirs, so are certainly not grounds on wish to place an apparently objective term "illness."
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