[blueray]

I can't find the link, but basically in some smaller parts of Greece, people have all ready been trading goods, in exchange for other goods.

Eg A few vegetables for meat, etc. They have no confidence in the Euro.


This thread was made just to prove all of the people who said "this wont happen and wont work", on the other thread wrong.

Edit: I don't agree with a money free system, but I wont be a hypocrite and say it wont work either.

Also read this before you neg.

(Original post by Steevee)
There's a difference between small scale trade providing a stop-gap for a failing economy and currency and an actual functioning economy and society based on a money free system.

A society is still a society regardless of the size. If you read what I said before, I don't agree with it, but it does work.
Thread was for all those ignorant people.

(Original post by Steevee)
It works in the same way Autocracy works. In that in essence, it is fundamentally flawed and far behind any current systems, and the thought of going back to such a system is ridiculous. But yes, I suppose it 'works'.

" I don't agree with a money free system, but I wont be a hypocrite and say it wont work either."

This is why I tell people to READ before they reply.

[Steevee]

There's a difference between small scale trade providing a stop-gap for a failing economy and currency and an actual functioning economy and society based on a money free system.

[Dan3va]

Its a bit different having a barter economy on a small scale such as that as opposed to a global scale

[alex_hk90]

(Original post by blueray)
I can't find the link, but basically in some smaller parts of Greece, people have all ready been trading goods, in exchange for other goods.

Eg A few vegetables for meat, etc. They have no confidence in the Euro.


This thread was made just to prove all of the people who said "this wont happen and wont work", on the other thread wrong.

Edit: I don't agree with a money free system, but I wont be a hypocrite and say it wont work either.

I haven't read the other thread, but this is nothing new, it's just reversion to the old barter system. It's worked before so there's no reason why it can't work today, it just isn't anywhere near as good as a money-based system.

When I read the thread title I thought it would be about a cash-free society.

[blueray]

(Original post by Steevee)
There's a difference between small scale trade providing a stop-gap for a failing economy and currency and an actual functioning economy and society based on a money free system.

A society is still a society regardless of the size. If you read what I said before, I don't agree with it, but it does work.
Thread was for all those ignorant people.

(Original post by alex_hk90)
I haven't read the other thread, but this is nothing new, it's just reversion to the old barter system. It's worked before so there's no reason why it can't work today, it just isn't anywhere near as good as a money-based system.

When I read the thread title I thought it would be about a cash-free society.

Exactly.

[Steevee]

(Original post by blueray)
A society is still a society regardless of the size. If you read what I said before, I don't agree with it, but it does work.
Thread was for all those ignorant people.



Exactly.

It works in the same way Autocracy works. In that in essence, it is fundamentally flawed and far behind any current systems, and the thought of going back to such a system is ridiculous. But yes, I suppose it 'works'.

[anarchism101]

Seriously, watch videos about this in Greece before assuming you know what it is. They're not bartering. They're not directly trading goods. Some are using their own credit tokens, but the more common movement is 'time credit' - where goods are allocated certain time values which build up on an account, and you can then use them, either to buy other goods, or using them to request a certain amount of another member's time for them to give you a hand round the house, teach you a skill (often languages), etc. This is designed so that people who have no physical goods to sell can still participate in the system and earn credit to buy things.

But you're right, it is a money free society.

[Classical Liberal]

(Original post by anarchism101)
Seriously, watch videos about this in Greece before assuming you know what it is. They're not bartering. They're not directly trading goods. Some are using their own credit tokens, but the more common movement is 'time credit' - where goods are allocated certain time values which build up on an account, and you can then use them, either to buy other goods, or using them to request a certain amount of another member's time for them to give you a hand round the house, teach you a skill (often languages), etc. This is designed so that people who have no physical goods to sell can still participate in the system and earn credit to buy things.

But you're right, it is a money free society.

It is still money, debt is money. The debt is in units of time rather than units of fiat currency.

[anarchism101]

(Original post by Classical Liberal)
It is still money, debt is money. The debt is in units of time rather than units of fiat currency.

Call it what you will, but this is a semantic argument. They're not trading in physical goods is the difference from the norm, but rather in quantified promises.

[Classical Liberal]

(Original post by anarchism101)
Call it what you will, but this is a semantic argument. They're not trading in physical goods is the difference from the norm, but rather in quantified promises.

"I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of x pounds"

[anarchism101]

(Original post by Classical Liberal)
"I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of x pounds"

Which are now just words. Yes, we do have other credit, but paper money is now an actual good - its use being that it redeems tax and debt bills.

[mucgoo]

http://www.economist.com/node/21551492
Worth a read.

[heyAmy]

I personally don't believe it would work at all.
Surely we'd have to work out what everything was equal to within the trading? Wouldn't that just create another currency system?

[RandomChap]

(Original post by blueray)
I can't find the link, but basically in some smaller parts of Greece, people have all ready been trading goods, in exchange for other goods.

Eg A few vegetables for meat, etc. They have no confidence in the Euro.

1. This isn't the essence of gift economy.
2. It's still money if individuals accept a certain medium of exchange that is commonly accepted - and that commonly accepted good is usely *high price (for small amounts of the good), *easily transportable, *easily divisible into smaller units, *preservable (some foods will go off very quickly, so the value that is stored in the food will be lost before the person has the opportunity to trade their produce).

Traditionally, this was realised in the form of precious metals, like gold and silver, although some economies which have not advanced their form of money will use other goods: when the currency collapsed in the Russian economy, cigarettes were used and cigarettes are often traded amongst inmates in prisons as well.

The idea of a moneyless economy is absurd simply because individuals cannot price goods, so they don't have the information of what goods are commonly valued in a society, hence they don't have the information of what is most productive to make. Under capitalism, they make the most money producing things that are valued highly by lots of people and they know this based on what the prices are. If there are no prices, they don't know what is highly valued, if there is no reward, they can't be incentivised by profit, they have to be incentivised by something else, like the common good.

(Original post by anarchism101)
Which are now just words. Yes, we do have other credit, but paper money is now an actual good - its use being that it redeems tax and debt bills.

The banks only keep a small reserve (~10%) of the physical wealth in gold/silver but in theory this is with the hope that 90% of the loaned out wealth or investments will make a return. Of course, when there is no private accountability, inflation ensues, because the banks take risks that do not see a future return.

In theory, central banks exact charges through an insurance scheme which ensures that smaller banks paying insurance in case of bank runs (in which case they will receive a bail out) will have to pay higher insurance at times they are taking greater risks.

I really dislike the caricature thrown around of the fractional reserve by leftists and some on the right.

[Classical Liberal]

(Original post by RandomChap)
The banks only keep a small reserve (~10%) of the physical wealth in gold/silver but in theory this is with the hope that 90% of the loaned out wealth or investments will make a return.

What? Banks do not hold reserves of gold/silver. They hold reserves of central bank money.

In theory, central banks exact charges through an insurance scheme which ensures that smaller banks paying insurance in case of bank runs (in which case they will receive a bail out) will have to pay higher insurance at times they are taking greater risks.

The deposit insurance scheme is not run by the central bank.

I really dislike the caricature thrown around of the fractional reserve by leftists and some on the right.

You don't know how the system works.

[RandomChap]

(Original post by Classical Liberal)
What? Banks do not hold reserves of gold/silver. They hold reserves of central bank money.

The paper doesn't have any immediate physical wealth without being backed up by gold or silver, so 90% of it is hypothetical, like you said the wealth is time (when the loan gets paid back or the investment makes a return). But the 10% reserves are backed up by tangible wealth otherwise it couldn't be reinvested into the economy like I have described.

The deposit insurance scheme is not run by the central bank.

I was thinking of marginal lending rates, my bad.

You don't know how the system works.

It's been a while since I read about it so excuse me if I am a bit rusty.

[Classical Liberal]

(Original post by RandomChap)
The paper doesn't have any immediate physical wealth without being backed up by gold or silver, so 90% of it is hypothetical, like you said the wealth is time (when the loan gets paid back or the investment makes a return). But the 10% reserves are backed up by tangible wealth otherwise it couldn't be reinvested into the economy like I have described.

There is no gold or silver backing the money.

[ANARCHY__]

(Original post by anarchism101)
Which are now just words. Yes, we do have other credit, but paper money is now an actual good - its use being that it redeems tax and debt bills.

Do you really think moneyless societies work beyond a small scale?

[TheHansa]

Probably to avoid the tax hikes, so it's a joke that people who would claim to be left wing are supporting this. A moneyless economy on a large scale would screw people so hard, imagine trying to persuade someone to be the guy making PET scanners for the NHS when he knows farmers i.e. the people who make food don't use PET scanners.

(Original post by blueray)
Exactly.

We know it can work, because it did in the past when the economy was based on agriculture, but it was replaced with a system which allows greater flexibility.

[anarchism101]

(Original post by ANARCHY__)
Do you really think moneyless societies work beyond a small scale?

Define money. Do you mean physical cash, or just any unit of account?