[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by sabre2th1)
Your observation is wrong though. The call for Shariah now is strongest it has been since the khilafah was abandoned. All over the world groups calling for Shariah have been springing up. 10 years ago this wasn't the case.

how many muslims in how many countries have actually implemented sharia, that was the question

[Spaz Man]

Islam is a belief, a way of life and a response to a revelation. In that sense it "exists" in people's hearts and their actions. Unless you know every single person properly, you'll never know of they're truly a Muslim or not.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Spaz Man)
Islam is a belief, a way of life and a response to a revelation. In that sense it "exists" in people's hearts and their actions. Unless you know every single person properly, you'll never know of they're truly a Muslim or not.

tell me then, does Norse mythology exist?

[Hylean]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
tell me then, does Norse mythology exist?

I've seen the manuscripts from the 13th century where it's preserved, so yes, it does. I've also met many modern neo-pagans who follow the beliefs preserved in said manuscripts, so yes, again.

A religion doesn't stop existing because its followers aren't perfect.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Hylean)
I've seen the manuscripts from the 13th century where it's preserved, so yes, it does. I've also met many modern neo-pagans who follow the beliefs preserved in said manuscripts, so yes, again.

A religion doesn't stop existing because its followers aren't perfect.

its not a recognised current practicing religion, perhaps you need to re-check your sources.

[Hylean]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
its not a recognised current practicing religion, perhaps you need to re-check your sources.

Look up Ásatrú, AFA, Odinic Rite, Germanic Heathenism, etc. just for starters. So, your analogy fails. Islam exists. Huzzah.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Hylean)
Look up Ásatrú, AFA, Odinic Rite, Germanic Heathenism, etc. just for starters. So, your analogy fails. Islam exists. Huzzah.

I referred specifcally to Norse mythology, none of which you have - it no longer exists becuase it is not practiced as it was in the 12th century.

As has already been clarified on this thread by various people, 1.6 billion people who call themselves muslim, are not all practicing islam, beciase they dont follow its edicts in their entirety.

[Hylean]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
I referred specifcally to Norse mythology, none of which you have - it no longer exists becuase it is not practiced as it was in the 12th century.

As has already been clarified on this thread by various people, 1.6 billion people who call themselves muslim, are not all practicing islam, beciase they dont follow its edicts in their entirety.

If you're not going to do the research, don't try and bring up something. I'm not even going to get into a discussion over why your comment on Norse mythology is wrong on so many levels.

As has been clarified by a great deal more people on this thread, Islam exists outside of how perfectly it is followed. Communism still exists despite there never having been a true Communist state.

[Coolkat]

Is this for real,does Islam does exist, but just like christainity, there are many divides,

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Hylean)
If you're not going to do the research, don't try and bring up something. I'm not even going to get into a discussion over why your comment on Norse mythology is wrong on so many levels.

As has been clarified by a great deal more people on this thread, Islam exists outside of how perfectly it is followed. Communism still exists despite there never having been a true Communist state.

communism as an theoretical ideolgy exists in terms of Marxs works, which you can read. As system in practice it does not, becuase in practice it has been shown not to work, hence hybrid political system that has survived today. It isnt communsim as Karl Marx espoused. In the same way Islam is not pracitced (largely ) as the islamic scriptures pronounced

Dont try and bring up something that is beyond your level of understanding.

[Ferrus]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
Although Islam has one all ruling book to follow, there are approx 34 differing schools of thought under the umbrellas of sunni, shia and sufi islam and then countless more other sects (fair estimate according to wiki is 15)

On TSR many muslims will explain that islam can only be practiced in correct form in a sharia state - however all aknowledge that no such system actually exists, or have any of the 1.6 billion muslims made efforts to implement the sharia system.

And we know even from spending a short time on TSR that various muslims here cant even agree on various points and interpretations of islamic rules and the quran.

So the only conclusion that can be drawn is that Islam doesnt actually exist. What does exist? Various people around the world practicing old rituals and traditions as they themselves see fit and convienient?

Im interested to hear other views, if you have an alternative opinion , you can articulate it on this thread. If you agree and cant think of an alternative logical argument to the contrary , feel free not to post but neg.

Here's an interesting thought experiment. That concepts exist as subsets and supersets. So, there are fruits but also apples and pears as subsets thereof, defined by say, a standard set of commonalities, or a spectrum thereof, from which they form a genus.

There's a nice wikipedia page which suggests these things are based on rigorous axiomatisations of human thought processes.

Unless of course this was not a metaphysical dilemma that was posed but some kind of cack-handed attempt to outfox any Islamic line of reasoning by positing some kind of pseudo-intellectual existential denial of an Islamic basis. I'd say it would be foolish not to then consider the whole Burkean edifice of practical justification, which as much as I disagree with it, needs consideration if this is not to be some hot-button attempt at semi-educated intellectual one-upmanship. Although your last paragraph seems so earnest I must be incorrect on these suspicions.

Now I am as against the specificity of faith-based arbitrary justifications as the next person informed by some semblance of Enlightenment principle. But to consider Islam only in this respect is disingenuous, both of intellectual honest and political honesty.

[Hylean]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
communism as an theoretical ideolgy exists in terms of Marxs works, which you can read. As system in practice it does not, becuase in practice it has been shown not to work, hence hybrid political system that has survived today. It isnt communsim as Karl Marx espoused. In the same way Islam is not pracitced (largely ) as the islamic scriptures pronounced

Dont try and bring up something that is beyond your level of understanding.

Now now, no need to be insulting. Just because you've been proven wrong, twice.

Again, won't get into why you're wrong about Communism having been shown "not to work".

I love how you've now attempted to qualify your statement about Islam not being practised as the scriptures state. To be perfectly honest, unless you've met every single Muslim, that's not a statement you can make. The entire point about Islam is that it is not just a way of life, it is more than that. It is a guide on how one should live, but recognises that people will not live up to the standards set. Islam exists because there are followers, pure and simple. Whether every single follower follows it perfectly or not is not an argument against its existence.

This, of course, ignores the various issues with what "Islam" actually is, because as I've mentioned to you before, it's open to interpretation. What you read in the scripture might not be what I read in it, so I could follow what I believe to be correct Islam and think you are wrong, yet you could feel you are following the correct form of Islam and I am the one who is mistaken.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Hylean)
Now now, no need to be insulting. Just because you've been proven wrong, twice.

Again, won't get into why you're wrong about Communism having been shown "not to work".

I love how you've now attempted to qualify your statement about Islam not being practised as the scriptures state. To be perfectly honest, unless you've met every single Muslim, that's not a statement you can make. The entire point about Islam is that it is not just a way of life, it is more than that. It is a guide on how one should live, but recognises that people will not live up to the standards set. Islam exists because there are followers, pure and simple. Whether every single follower follows it perfectly or not is not an argument against its existence.

This, of course, ignores the various issues with what "Islam" actually is, because as I've mentioned to you before, it's open to interpretation. What you read in the scripture might not be what I read in it, so I could follow what I believe to be correct Islam and think you are wrong, yet you could feel you are following the correct form of Islam and I am the one who is mistaken.

Wrong? whatever helps you sleep at night I dont see any insult in pointing out and correcting your weakness on these subjects. Perhaps you could raise it as an issue, seeing as things are being ingnored repeteadly on the Q&A threads too.

By your logic i could simply grow a beard and call myself a muslim, even if i dont adhere to any other islamic practice. If you took time to actually study the system you claim to practice, you will realsie that isnt the case. Islam is governed by scripture, either you follow it or you dont. The ones that pick and choose, clearly arnt practicing islam, perhaps just call themselves muslims for convience, family commitment etc. As has been pointed out throughout this thread, there are various fundamental edicts modern muslims around the world ignore

[Hylean]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
Wrong? whatever helps you sleep at night I dont see any insult in pointing out and correcting your weakness on these subjects. Perhaps you could raise it as an issue, seeing as things are being ingnored repeteadly on the Q&A threads too.

Take the moderation queries to AAM or AASM, you know this by now.

As for the rest, what weakness? You seemingly think that Ásatrú, the AFA, Odinic rite and Germanic heathenism have no connection to Norse mythology. You apparently believe that the Norse mythology was actually worshipped in the form we have preserved and that it was followed in this form during the 12th century. Those are just the basic weaknesses of that example. I won't go on.

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
By your logic i could simply grow a beard and call myself a muslim, even if i dont adhere to any other islamic practice. If you took time to actually study the system you claim to practice, you will realsie that isnt the case. Islam is governed by scripture, either you follow it or you dont. The ones that pick and choose, clearly arnt practicing islam, perhaps just call themselves muslims for convience, family commitment etc. As has been pointed out throughout this thread, there are various fundamental edicts modern muslims around the world ignore

You could call yourself a muslim, but you wouldn't be a muslim, given you don't believe or even attempt to follow anything scripture says.

And there are muslims around the world who don't ignore said fundamental edicts or have a different interpretation of said edicts to you.

This does not mean Islam doesn't exist.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Hylean)
Take the moderation queries to AAM or AASM, you know this by now.

As for the rest, what weakness? You seemingly think that Ásatrú, the AFA, Odinic rite and Germanic heathenism have no connection to Norse mythology. You apparently believe that the Norse mythology was actually worshipped in the form we have preserved and that it was followed in this form during the 12th century. Those are just the basic weaknesses of that example. I won't go on.




You could call yourself a muslim, but you wouldn't be a muslim, given you don't believe or even attempt to follow anything scripture says.
And there are muslims around the world who don't ignore said fundamental .

Well i could grow a beard, maybe go to mecca once a year. Why wouldnt i? ( in your logic) What the difference to a billion or so muslims that do the same but also drink coffee (intoxicant) watch tv (images) listen to their i-pods (idle thoughts) and wear tight clothing (immodesty/sexualisation) - how are they practing islam exactly?

[Hylean]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
Well i could grow a beard, maybe go to mecca once a year. Why wouldnt i? ( in your logic) What the difference to a billion or so muslims that do the same but also drink coffee (intoxicant) watch tv (images) listen to their i-pods (idle thoughts) and wear tight clothing (immodesty/sexualisation) - how are they practing islam exactly?

Would you have faith in Allah? The basic precepts of Islam? Would you attempt to follow them? Would you feel guilty for sinning or failing?

Again, you seem to thinking that a failing to follow means they do not try or that this failing is unacknowledge or implies Islam does not exist. Moreover, your entire argument hinges on that you've somehow met every Muslim to know whether they follow your interpretation of Islamic scripture. A massive feat if it were true.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Hylean)
Would you have faith in Allah? The basic precepts of Islam? Would you attempt to follow them? Would you feel guilty for sinning or failing?

Again, you seem to thinking that a failing to follow means they do not try or that this failing is unacknowledge or implies Islam does not exist. Moreover, your entire argument hinges on that you've somehow met every Muslim to know whether they follow your interpretation of Islamic scripture. A massive feat if it were true.

how is choosing to , watch tv, wear 'unislamic clothing' drink coffee, "trying to follow" islam. Are they being forced to go against these islamic principles - or are they making the choice to disagree with them?

again if pick and choose what to follow and what not to, am i not a muslim too? ( they are not my interpretations btw m they are established islamic practice from its own scripture - if you dont understand these, then there is little point in you getting involved in this discussion)

[Hylean]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
how is choosing to , watch tv, wear 'unislamic clothing' drink coffee, "trying to follow" islam. Are they being forced to go against these islamic principles - or are they making the choice to disagree with them?

again if pick and choose what to follow and what not to, am i not a muslim too? ( they are not my interpretations btw m they are established islamic practice from its own scripture - if you dont understand these, then there is little point in you getting involved in this discussion)

Again, there's no need to try and insult people. Like I said, that they have different interpretations to you does not stop them being muslims. They can be bad muslims, or good muslims, but they are still muslim.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Hylean)
Again, there's no need to try and insult people. Like I said, that they have different interpretations to you does not stop them being muslims. They can be bad muslims, or good muslims, but they are still muslim.

i dont know why you continue to try and de-rail the thread, there is no insulting going on, just corrections of your errors. If you able to stick to the topic, then you can explain why you dont think a i cant grow a bread and visit mecca under hajj, as a raging alcoholic with a bottle of whisky in my hand- by your logic , it doesnt stop me proclaiming to be a practicing muslim.
i hold that he is picking and choosing what to beleive and follow, therefore he isnt following islam anymore.

[M Kh]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
i dont know why you continue to try and de-rail the thread, there is no insulting going on, just corrections of your errors. If you able to stick to the topic, then you can explain why you dont think a i cant grow a bread and visit mecca under hajj, as a raging alcoholic with a bottle of whisky in my hand- by your logic , it doesnt stop me proclaiming to be a practicing muslim.
i hold that he is picking and choosing what to beleive and follow, therefore he isnt following islam anymore.

Oh yes yes Hylean, ask the Islamic scholar Indo-chinese food. She thinks she knows how strong our Faith is in ALLAH and how ALLAH SUBHANA WA TA'ALA will judge us on the Day of Judgement. Actually Faith is the most important thing in Islam which no one except ALLAH knows how strong it is in our hearts.

It is a matter of intentions and Faith - don't you understand???

Okay let's say you do all this - grow beard and go for Hajj etc. but is your Faith strong??? WHAT'S IN YOUR HEART???? There is no show off in Islam!! It is a matter of our Faith - ALLAH knows how strong our Faith is and not you! And ALLAH knows best.