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Around 1.6 billion claim to be muslim - but does Islam even exist?

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    (Original post by Saleha)
    You cant really assume no one follows it though :s you haven't seen every single Muslim in the world so I think that ends this here...
    So the only way to comment on something is if you have seen every possible version of it?

    I guess that means scientists can't make any comments on DNA, because well...they haven't seen the DNA of every single organism on the planet.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    So the only way to comment on something is if you have seen every possible version of it?

    I guess that means scientists can't make any comments on DNA, because well...they haven't seen the DNA of every single organism on the planet.
    I'm not saying you can't comment on it, I'm just saying you can't make such outrageous statements about it out of the blue if you don't know all the facts..
    It's like a scientist saying that a species can't exist that could survive extremely high pressures because they haven't been down in to the ocean further enough, they can simply say that they think it's unlikely or that there may be very few
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    (Original post by Saleha)
    I'm not saying you can't comment on it, I'm just saying you can't make such outrageous statements about it out of the blue if you don't know all the facts..
    It's like a scientist saying that a species can't exist that could survive extremely high pressures because they haven't been down in to the ocean further enough, they can simply say that they think it's unlikely or that there may be very few
    Well indo isn't actually saying that no muslims exist. What he's arguing is Islam doesn't exist.

    If muslims don't exist as a consequence of that first argument, that's incidental. His primary argument is that Islam does not exist.

    So why are you bringing in the red herring of muslims existing or not.

    Tackle the point he's making. islam =/= muslims because there are many sects/divisions/interpretations of what a muslim actually means.

    The point he's made is whether ISLAM exists or not. I believe he's allowed to make that judgement without having actually met every single muslim out there because that entire point is irrelevant.

    It is Islam which defines a muslim. Muslims don't define Islam.

    So to examine whether Islam as a religion exists, you cannot argue that we should go talk to muslims. That's nonsense.
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    (Original post by .eXe)
    Well indo isn't actually saying that no muslims exist. What he's arguing is Islam doesn't exist.

    If muslims don't exist as a consequence of that first argument, that's incidental. His primary argument is that Islam does not exist.

    So why are you bringing in the red herring of muslims existing or not.

    Tackle the point he's making. islam =/= muslims because there are many sects/divisions/interpretations of what a muslim actually means.

    The point he's made is whether ISLAM exists or not. I believe he's allowed to make that judgement without having actually met every single muslim out there because that entire point is irrelevant.

    It is Islam which defines a muslim. Muslims don't define Islam.

    So to examine whether Islam as a religion exists, you cannot argue that we should go talk to muslims. That's nonsense.
    I personally think you're nonsense.
    Islam does exist, but people follow its rules in different ways through different interpretations.. there are Muslims that follow the rules properly and there are Muslims that interpret the rules how they want to and this has been past on over generations so that its spread causing different sects - That doesn't suggest some sects are wrong because they all essentially follow the same thing, but practice different rituals
    they still believe in the five pillars of Islam, still believe in having one God, still believe Mohammad (PBUH) is the prophet of Allah
    We still pray the same prayers and follow the same Qur'an and the Qur'an has always remained unchanged
    There are no new or changed versions of it either
    I didn't say you should go talk to all muslims did I? I said you can't possibly assume without all the facts
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    (Original post by Jiraya Sama)
    Best answer yet.

    I think this person has had his questions answered many a times in different formats and voices throughout this topic. A person will come and will not like the answer he has given, so he will go to another person and then another and then another. Similar to this person. He is trying to look for something which even he does not know anymore.

    I think he is trying to seek attention. Referring to my first post and this is my last, even if you chucked all the muslims in the ocean, we still have Good ol you to make a post or speak about Islam. Islam MUST exist, as proof for you to take your time and debate about it. Even a non believer instigated the topic of Islam. You wouldnt debate about things which meant nothing and you have put a lot of effort into researching Islam. So may Allah open your heart, and bless you for seeking into the deen.

    Let all the 1.6 billion muslims make dua for you to see the right path. In the end, Islam is here. Islam is the truth. Islam is ready, are you ready for Islam?

    Ameen.
    poetic rhetoric sounds lovely but never answered any logical questions.

    My original and points made throughout have not been answered

    the points all remain (amoungnst other things) about the variations of islamic practice, varying sects that disbeleive each others muslim status and the fact that essentially no muslim follows islam as mohammed did or intended or avoids contradicting whats in his sermons.

    All the rhetoric in the world cannot change these points.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    On TSR many muslims will explain that islam can only be practiced in correct form in a sharia state - however all aknowledge that no such system actually exists
    But you have just told me it does exist.

    There is difference between something existing and not actually existing. It does exist, as you have just said but not be there at present.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    Yes, well that was my point, that muslims only ever follow certain islamic rules and not others. This idea of 'strength of faith' is a wishy washy red herring - either you beleive in the teachings of islam and follow them all, or you dont. If a ' muslim' does Hajj drunk on SOuthern Comfort, then clealry he isnt practicing Islam is he? Therefore a 'muslim' that drinks coke and watches tv and facebook isnt either.
    Where exactly is your proof that every muslim "only ever follow[s] certain islamic rules and not others"?


    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    i dont know why you continue to try and de-rail the thread, there is no insulting going on, just corrections of your errors. If you able to stick to the topic, then you can explain why you dont think a i cant grow a bread and visit mecca under hajj, as a raging alcoholic with a bottle of whisky in my hand- by your logic , it doesnt stop me proclaiming to be a practicing muslim.
    i hold that he is picking and choosing what to beleive and follow, therefore he isnt following islam anymore.
    How exactly is responding to your points derailing the thread? :confused:

    I never said it stops you from proclaiming to be a practising muslim, I just said that you might not actually be one. Sort of a difference. I can claim to be a black alien called Splortnik, doesn't necessarily mean I am.

    You've still yet to answer why your interpretation of Islam is the correct one and why muslims should be following your interpretation and yours alone for Islam to exist.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Where exactly is your proof that every muslim "only ever follow[s] certain islamic rules and not others"?




    How exactly is responding to your points derailing the thread? :confused:

    I never said it stops you from proclaiming to be a practising muslim, I just said that you might not actually be one. Sort of a difference. I can claim to be a black alien called Splortnik, doesn't necessarily mean I am.

    You've still yet to answer why your interpretation of Islam is the correct one and why muslims should be following your interpretation and yours alone for Islam to exist.

    i referred to your insistence to draw bickering of insults when there were none, which were threatening to de-rail the thread. As has been explained to you before, pointing out your lack of knowledge is not an insult. You as a mod should be fully aware of that.

    as for you other paragraph, you are now jsut simply contradicting waht you said earlier - now people who dont follow all islamic edicts now arnt actually muslims - make your mind up.

    None of whats been said is my interpretation, its what is written in the quran and hadeeth, seeing as youve read neither, you cant comment on their interpretation anyway.

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