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Around 1.6 billion claim to be muslim - but does Islam even exist?

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    (Original post by uxa595)
    None of us are perfect and so none of us really follow Islam perfectly but the fundamentals that make you a muslim are the 5 pillars of Islam (which i'm sure you can wiki up too, because that's such a great source for Islamic knowledge) with the first and most important being a person's belief in Islam and prophet Mohammed(pbuh) is the messenger of allah.

    Also, there are only 4 "MAJOR" schools of law in Islam.


    you are wrong in the above becuase a self proclaimed muslim that does follow the ' 5 pillars' ( a muslim then according to you) but also decides drinking and drug taking is acceptable is no longer classed as practicing islam - certainly according to opinion on TSR

    practice of islam is far more complicated than just 5 pillars
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    academic disciplines(largely) can be proven and standardised (ie medicine, mechancal engineering) but they dont claim to be derived from one single infalliable book do they? so variation can be tollerated becuase neither is a single ideology
    It may apply to other religions too, but that isnt the subject of this thread, so stay on topic. Islam specifies the quran and sharia law to be the only correct source and application of islam and therefore way of life- yet neither is used uniformly amoungst 1.6 billion muslims.
    Interesting you choose disciplines that are purely scientific. What about anthropology, sociology, folkloristics, psychology, literature, linguistics...

    I was staying on topic. The point was, once an idea is born, it is interpreted endlessly by its followers, so there will never be a single uniform path, regardless of the idea. This applies as much to Islam as any other school of thought.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    thats not necessarrily true or that simple- ie ahmadiyya, moorish science muslims etc are not universally agreed upon in terms of practicing islam or not.
    These are fringe minority sects. The vast majority of Muslims believe what I said.
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    (Original post by AntisthenesDogger)
    No. I said it was doubtful many people who practice, are by definition of what their tenets define as "Muslim" actually Muslims. You can't pick and choose with religion, you either follow it or you don't.
    then you need to re-read my OP.

    If muslims living in a muslim country are compelled by the quran to live under sharia law - why dont any of them do so? There are no willing practicing muslims?
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    (Original post by Dhaal_Chawal)
    These are fringe minority sects. The vast majority of Muslims believe what I said.
    depends whcih way you look at it - those sects also practice shahada , one of the pillars you were referring to. But you now dispute they are actually practicing islam - contrary to what you earlier said.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    you are wrong in the above becuase a self proclaimed muslim that does follow the ' 5 pillars' ( a muslim then according to you) but also decides drinking and drug taking is acceptable is no longer classed as practicing islam - certainly according to opinion on TSR

    practice of islam is far more complicated than just 5 pillars
    Wtf are you on about?


    If you believe in allah, yet you drink and don't pray, you are still a muslim, albeit a bad one.

    TSR and wiki arn't the best of sources for islam.
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    I don't understand why you keep posting such threads, OP. You clearly don't seem to be having anything else to do. As for your question, I don't think you will get a reliable answer from TSR. Visit countries like Kuwait and you will know more. But I think you are looking for opinions so that you can just argue about Islam and related issues. Actually, in Islam, you must not divide the muslims into categories - it's wrong to do so. ISLAM means 'submission to the will of ALLAH' and not what the different 'categories' of muslims seem to believe. If you are smart enough, you will understand what this means.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Interesting you choose disciplines that are purely scientific. What about anthropology, sociology, folkloristics, psychology, literature, linguistics...

    I was staying on topic. The point was, once an idea is born, it is interpreted endlessly by its followers, so there will never be a single uniform path, regardless of the idea. This applies as much to Islam as any other school of thought.

    the difference to the above and islam is fairly clear - Islam doesnt allow for re-interpretation. if you beleive the quran can be re-intepretated in 2012 then you are not a practing muslim ( by islamic definition) The quran is a self proclaimed perfect book for 'all mankind for all times' therefore it cannot allow for modern re-interpretation. either you follow its edicts or you dont - as they were followed in 800 ad. Obviously no muslims do practice islam as they did in 800 ad, therefore islam isnt in current existence
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    ISLAM means submission to the will of ALLAH. I believe in ALLAH and I TESTIFY THAT THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH. I believe this then how you can say that ISLAM doesn't exist?
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    (Original post by M Kh)
    Actually, in Islam, you must not divide the muslims into categories - it's wrong to do so. ISLAM means 'submission to the will of ALLAH' and not what the different 'categories' of muslims seem to believe. If you are smart enough, you will understand what this means.
    ok so the fact that muslims do sub divide and separate themselves (and have done since mohammed) kind of proves what im saying then?
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    the difference to the above and islam is fairly clear - Islam doesnt allow for re-interpretation. if you beleive the quran can be re-intepretated in 2012 then you are not a practing muslim ( by islamic definition) The quran is a self proclaimed perfect book for 'all mankind for all times' therefore it cannot allow for modern re-interpretation. either you follow its edicts or you dont - as they were followed in 800 ad. Obviously no muslims do practice islam as they did in 800 ad, therefore islam isnt in current existence
    Everything allows for interpretation, even Islam.

    If you make an ambiguous statement, that allows for interpretation. The Qur'an makes many an ambiguous statement, as do the Hadith, thus there is room for interpretation.
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    (Original post by uxa595)
    Wtf are you on about?


    If you believe in allah, yet you drink and don't pray, you are still a muslim, albeit a bad one.

    TSR and wiki arn't the best of sources for islam.
    Not really. If you believe with conviction in Allah and if you do not please him and become sinful then you will spend eternity in a fire (look to the Quran and hadiths for specific descriptions of it) then I doubt you will drink or miss a prayer.
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    (Original post by uxa595)
    Wtf are you on about?


    If you believe in allah, yet you drink and don't pray, you are still a muslim, albeit a bad one.

    TSR and wiki arn't the best of sources for islam.
    i think my comment went over your head - if a muslim decides drinking is not a sin, he is saying what is written in the quran and what mohammed taught is wrong = how can he be practicing islam?
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    ok so the fact that muslims do sub divide and separate themselves (and have done since mohammed) kind of proves what im saying then?
    NO, it does not prove that ISLAM has caesed to exist. I am not a sunni or shia but I am a muslim - I believe in ALLAH. Many people here in Kuwait do not believe in this dividing of muslims because we are one. Does this prove that ISLAM exists? YES, IT DOES - ISLAM EXISTS IN OUR HEARTS. I feel sorry for those who divide muslims although whichever muslim I have seen here in Kuwait does not believe in dividing muslims into categories.

    We believe that ALLAH IS THE ONLY ONE WHO IS WORTHY OF WORSHIP. I am a willing practicing muslim. We believe other muslims are also the followers of PROPHET MUHAMMAD (PBUH) and believe in the first pillar of ISLAM from their hearts. ISLAM EXISTS - atleast in my family and country it does - because we don't categorize ourselves into different 'types' of muslims.
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    Just to draw up a parallel, Christianity has many sects, Catholic, Church of England, Baptist Churches and so on...

    When you address a lot of these questions to Islam, you can probably address them in a fairly good approximation to Christianity, which most people in the UK are more familiar with.

    Of course there will be discrepencies, just before anyone points that out.
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    (Original post by M Kh)
    NO, it does not prove that ISLAM has caesed to exist. I am not a sunni or shia but I am a muslim - I believe in ALLAH. Many people here in Kuwait do not believe in this dividing of muslims because we are one. Does this prove that ISLAM exists? YES, IT DOES - ISLAM EXISTS IN OUR HEARTS. I feel sorry for those who divide muslims although whichever muslim I have seen here in Kuwait does not believe in dividing muslims into categories.

    We believe that ALLAH IS THE ONLY ONE WHO IS WORTHY OF WORSHIP. I am a willing practicing muslim. We believe other muslims are also the followers of PROPHET MUHAMMAD (PBUH) and believe in the first pillar of ISLAM from their hearts. ISLAM EXISTS - atleast in my family and country it does - because we don't categorize ourselves into different 'types' of muslims.

    if you are neither a sunni or shia, then you fall into a small minority sect of islam - who both shia and sunni (well over 1 billion muslims) probably dont recognise as actually practicing islam.
    So not withstanding your block capitalised rhetoric, you illustrate the piint i made- about 'islam' being practiced in so many different ways that it isnt deemd islam anymore
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    i think my comment went over your head - if a muslim decides drinking is not a sin, he is saying what is written in the quran and what mohammed taught is wrong = how can he be practicing islam?
    Many people commit sins not because they do not BELIEVE in the teachings of the Prophet MUHAMMAD (PBUH) and ofcourse the QURAN, but because they are mislead by the shaitan in their hearts and ALLAH knows best. ALLAH knows our hearts - He knows we can commit sins - which is why ALLAH ALWAYS Forgives our mistakes if we ask.
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    (Original post by Hylean)
    Everything allows for interpretation, even Islam.

    If you make an ambiguous statement, that allows for interpretation. The Qur'an makes many an ambiguous statement, as do the Hadith, thus there is room for interpretation.
    This is your opinion not an islamic one. If you are a practicing sunni muslim you will accept hadith as a source of interpretation of the quran. But can you successfully wrtie a new hadith intepretating waht the quran means and be accpeted as a muslim ( if not face a death threat?)
    If you are shia you will not accept that interpretation of the quran.

    Either way if one muslim reads the quran and thinks it means one thing, then another reads it and does the opposite - either one or both are not practicing islam as per the quran ( which is one of the criteria of being a muslim)

    Both shia and sunni accept the quran states the correct way to live life as a muslim in a muslim country is under sharia law - and yet none actually do.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    the difference to the above and islam is fairly clear - Islam doesnt allow for re-interpretation. if you beleive the quran can be re-intepretated in 2012 then you are not a practing muslim ( by islamic definition) The quran is a self proclaimed perfect book for 'all mankind for all times' therefore it cannot allow for modern re-interpretation. either you follow its edicts or you dont - as they were followed in 800 ad. Obviously no muslims do practice islam as they did in 800 ad, therefore islam isnt in current existence
    How can you say that we do not practice ISLAM fully? Many people do. Even in the times of PROPHET MUHAMMAD (PBUH), people used to drink alcohol and commit sins and some of the companions of PROPHET MUHAMMAD (PBUH) sometimes did mistakes, but then asked for forgiveness from ALLAH. You have not seen how the MUSLIMS here in KUWAIT practice ISLAM so willingly and so do I. Therefore, your point is invalid. ISLAM EXISTS.
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    (Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
    ...
    I think you have a very valid point. I mean surely if you believe with conviction in Allah then you must believe in heaven and hell. And the descriptions there is of heaven and hell should be enough to stop somebody committing any sort of "sin".

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