[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by M Kh)
Many people commit sins not because they do not BELIEVE in the teachings of the Prophet MUHAMMAD (PBUH) and ofcourse the QURAN, but because they are mislead by the shaitan in their hearts and ALLAH knows best. ALLAH knows our hearts - He knows we can commit sins - which is why ALLAH ALWAYS Forgives our mistakes if we ask.

so all of us that dont believe mohammeds teaching are muslims now?

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by . . .)
I think you have a very valid point. I mean surely if you believe with conviction in Allah then you must believe in heaven and hell. And the descriptions there is of heaven and hell should be enough to stop somebody committing any sort of "sin".

the ultimate question for this thread to be answered is - are muslims practicing islam as is prescribed in the quran and words of mohammed or are they just doing it for face value. If the latter is true, then does 'islam' as a concept cease to exist

[DarkTitan]

Even schools of thoughts although vary in some views (there doesn't need to be a uniform way to pray for example as long as it's proven by that school of thought as acceptable...but start hopping on one leg with your hands behind your head and you have a problem), all have principles which if they deviate from are outside the religion, which would class them into some form of sect which wouldn't be Islam.

A school of thought that deviates from the Quran and sunnah is no longer Islam. Quite simple really.

[. . .]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
the ultimate question for this thread to be answered is - are muslims practicing islam as is prescribed in the quran and words of mohammed or are they just doing it for face value. If the latter is true, then does 'islam' as a concept cease to exist

Interesting. But surely there must be a few out there who truly believe in it. I mean personally I believe that the vast majority are doing it for face value but there are a few out there who truly do believe.

This goes for all religions that believe in a heaven/hell afterlife not just Islam.

[Hylean]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
This is your opinion not an islamic one. If you are a practicing sunni muslim you will accept hadith as a source of interpretation of the quran. But can you successfully wrtie a new hadith intepretating waht the quran means and be accpeted as a muslim ( if not face a death threat?)
If you are shia you will not accept that interpretation of the quran.

Either way if one muslim reads the quran and thinks it means one thing, then another reads it and does the opposite - either one or both are not practicing islam as per the quran ( which is one of the criteria of being a muslim)

Both shia and sunni accept the quran states the correct way to live life as a muslim in a muslim country is under sharia law - and yet none actually do.

So, they read the book, think they understand it, but because of differing lives, influences, etc. have different opinions on what they've actually read you think that means Islam doesn't exist and they are not practising it as per The Qur'an? Yeah, that argument doesn't hold water. The simple fact that they have interpreted the book differently but are still following it according to what they've read in the book means they are following The Qur'an and this Islam.

So, Islam exists.

An example of this would be how people can find sexism and racism in Lord of the Rings whilst others find the exact opposite. Both sides use evidence only found within the work itself to highlight their viewpoint.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by . . .)
Interesting. But surely there must be a few out there who truly believe in it. I mean personally I believe that the vast majority are doing it for face value but there are a few out there who truly do believe.

This goes for all religions that believe in a heaven/hell afterlife not just Islam.

simple belief in heaven/hell isnt the automatic qualifer for muslim categorisation.
islam means submission - to submit to a higher power by following the quran. If muslim dont follow what is written in the quran or what mohammed actually said (which largely they dont) Then they cant be described as practicing islam

[M Kh]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
if you are neither a sunni or shia, then you fall into a small minority sect of islam - who both shia and sunni (well over 1 billion muslims) probably dont recognise as actually practicing islam.
So not withstanding your block capitalised rhetoric, you illustrate the piint i made- about 'islam' being practiced in so many different ways that it isnt deemd islam anymore

You think WE are a 'minority' - oh Dear ALLAH, ISLAM is the fastest growing religion and we still have people who think like this!

I don't understand why, one way or the other, you are saying that we are not practicing muslims. Dividing muslims has happened AFTER PROPHET MUHAMMAD (PBUH) Left this world and everything that is added after this is said to be BIDDA'H which is wrong and ALLAH will account for this when judging people and ALLAH knows best. Like many other sins, even this is wrong.

As for your point that sunni and shia don't believe that we are practicing muslims, I don't care what others think because it is ALLAH who will reward us and not people.

[. . .]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
simple belief in heaven/hell isnt the automatic qualifer for muslim categorisation.
islam means submission - to submit to a higher power by following the quran. If muslim dont follow what is written in the quran or what mohammed actually said (which largely they dont) Then they cant be described as practicing islam

I guess so. But but your assuming all ~1.6 billion Muslims are not practising I bet there must be a few that follow Islam to the tee.

[. . .]

(Original post by M Kh)
You think WE are a 'minority' - oh Dear ALLAH, ISLAM is the fastest growing religion and we still have people who think like this!

I don't understand why, one way or the other, you are saying that we are not practicing muslims. Dividing muslims has happened AFTER PROPHET MUHAMMAD (PBUH) Left this world and everything that is added after this is said to be BIDDA'H which is wrong and ALLAH will account for this when judging people and ALLAH knows best. Like many other sins, even this is wrong.

As for your point that sunni and shia don't believe that we are practicing muslims, I don't care what others think because it is ALLAH who will reward us and not people.

Have you ever missed a prayer since you've hit puberty (or whenever you start being held accountable for them)?

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by Hylean)
So, they read the book, think they understand it, but because of differing lives, influences, etc. have different opinions on what they've actually read you think that means Islam doesn't exist and they are not practising it as per The Qur'an? Yeah, that argument doesn't hold water. The simple fact that they have interpreted the book differently but are still following it according to what they've read in the book means they are following The Qur'an and this Islam.

So, Islam exists.

An example of this would be how people can find sexism and racism in Lord of the Rings whilst others find the exact opposite. Both sides use evidence only found within the work itself to highlight their viewpoint.

I dont know what you are going on about, if muslims (particualrly in muslim countries) practice islam in a different way than was done by mohammed and also dont follow sharia law as was required by the quran - then either they are claiming mohammeds and the qurans version of islam was wrong , or they are practicing something different. If you allow for constant regular re-interpretation of the quran - how do you know which is the right (islamic) one?

[abdiz12]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
simple belief in heaven/hell isnt the automatic qualifer for muslim categorisation.
islam means submission - to submit to a higher power by following the quran. If muslim dont follow what is written in the quran or what mohammed actually said (which largely they dont) Then they cant be described as practicing islam

So it's you who decides if someone is a Muslim or not?

[Converse Rocker]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
snip

By this logic, pretty much no logic exists really; for example there is literal and non-literal interpretations of the Bible which are completely different. I think it's safe to say that Islam does exist.

[Ayshizzle]

(Original post by M Kh)
You think WE are a 'minority' - oh Dear ALLAH, ISLAM is the fastest growing religion and we still have people who think like this!

I don't understand why, one way or the other, you are saying that we are not practicing muslims. Dividing muslims has happened AFTER PROPHET MUHAMMAD (PBUH) Left this world and everything that is added after this is said to be BIDDA'H which is wrong and ALLAH will account for this when judging people and ALLAH knows best. Like many other sins, even this is wrong.

As for your point that sunni and shia don't believe that we are practicing muslims, I don't care what others think because it is ALLAH who will reward us and not people.

He meant those of you who do not identify as being Sunni or Shia are a minority, not Muslims in general.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by . . .)
I guess so. But but your assuming all ~1.6 billion Muslims are not practising I bet there must be a few that follow Islam to the tee.

they cant becuase to practice islam correctly you have to live in a sharia country - none of which have been created

[. . .]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
they cant becuase to practice islam correctly you have to live in a sharia country - none of which have been created

Where does it say that?

[M Kh]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
so all of us that dont believe mohammeds teaching are muslims now?

You misread my post. What I am trying to say is that many muslims do BELIEVE that the teachings are true but are still mislead by the shaitan and those who repent are forgiven and ALLAH knows best.

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by abdiz12)
So it's you who decides if someone is a Muslim or not?

no clearly the quran and mohammed have decided what islam is - whoever actually intentionally follows them is a muslim. but who does?

[M Kh]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
they cant becuase to practice islam correctly you have to live in a sharia country - none of which have been created

WHAT??
You can practice ISLAM ANYWHERE. What the hell does practcing have to do with location?

[Indo-Chinese Food]

(Original post by . . .)
Where does it say that?

the quran and sunnah contain the template for the sharia system - but no muslim has ever implemented it - all 1.6 billion practice as 'muslims' under a non sharia framework

[M Kh]

(Original post by Indo-Chinese Food)
no clearly the quran and mohammed have decided what islam is - whoever actually intentionally follows them is a muslim. but who does?

ME - I believe in ALLAH, PRAY 5 times a day, fast. I know many people who do practice ISLAM. Now you will decide if I am a muslim or not?? Are you the one who will reward us on the DAY OF JUDGEMENT?