[Carl Sagan]

(Original post by chefdave)
I've read about them thanks, and socialism still sucks. "Positive" freedom is simply the economics of slavery rebranded, it's just that socialists want the poor to profit from the forced labour of others rather than the rich.

Uh, aren't the poor those in 'forced labour'?

[chefdave]

(Original post by AboveTheLine)
What the hell is the LVT.

I feel as though I should know, since I think I support UKIP.

Hi ATL, the land value tax isn't very well known because economists and politicians alike know how much the British love their house prices, but as a concept it's been around for well over 100 years. In a nutshell the idea is to significantly reduce taxation on wages and profits (something most UKIPers support) and replace them with an annual levy based upon land values, supporters of the LVT believe this is the only sustainable way to keep damaging taxes low while still providing the state with the resources it needs.

[chefdave]

(Original post by Carl Sagan)
Uh, aren't the poor those in 'forced labour'?

Ok, so how does a net increase in slavery (aka "positive" freedom) address this problem?

Trying to solve indentured labour with socialism is like trying to cure obesity with cake, it's a remedy destined to fail.

[chefdave]

(Original post by ApresAlkan)
You call it productivity. Income distribution is inherently unfair, and it's the state's job to mitigate that. They might have a tax on natural resources, but the Nordic states have an incredibly banded tax system, and overall tax burdens equalling and exceeding 50% of GDP...

I support the Nordic Model and the European Union.

Rather than allowing the super rich to exploit lucrative loopholes and then chasing around for tax returns the LVT closes down these loopholes at source, thus eliminting the need for productivity taxes that harm everyone.

The exact % of taxation to GDP isn't that important as long as the tax system nurtures productivity and discourages parasitism, at the moment we have the polar opposite. Workers are punished with a hefty tax regime whenever they add value but homeowners and a handful of other monopolists are given a free pass to line their pockets with other people's cash. Quality, not quantity is the key with taxation I feel.

[TheHansa]

(Original post by ApresAlkan)
Norway
Sweden
Finland
Denmark

Of these countries only Norway could be considered socialist and they just rely on oil.

[ApresAlkan]

(Original post by TheHansa)
Of these countries only Norway could be considered socialist and they just rely on oil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

[ApresAlkan]

(Original post by chefdave)
Rather than allowing the super rich to exploit lucrative loopholes and then chasing around for tax returns the LVT closes down these loopholes at source, thus eliminting the need for productivity taxes that harm everyone.

The exact % of taxation to GDP isn't that important as long as the tax system nurtures productivity and discourages parasitism, at the moment we have the polar opposite. Workers are punished with a hefty tax regime whenever they add value but homeowners and a handful of other monopolists are given a free pass to line their pockets with other people's cash. Quality, not quantity is the key with taxation I feel.

What about universal cradle-to-grave welfare, would you support that? The system I propose is a uniform, quite high, standard of living, both in terms of housing and food, and whatever else which is available to everyone, both working and non-working. To get anything more, one must work or otherwise earn money. This system would be funded by high taxation to mitigate capitalism.

I could elaborate if you wish...

[chefdave]

(Original post by ApresAlkan)
What about universal cradle-to-grave welfare, would you support that? The system I propose is a uniform, quite high, standard of living, both in terms of housing and food, and whatever else which is available to everyone, both working and non-working. To get anything more, one must work or otherwise earn money. This system would be funded by high taxation to mitigate capitalism.

I could elaborate if you wish...

The system you propose is the one we have now (just with even more taxation). The system of economic stagnation; recession; high unemployment; unsustainable deficit spending and a disenfranchised working class confused as to why they're unable to make it off the first rung of the ladder. Yes the fantasy of socialism is "cradle to grave" welfare, but the reality is often grinding poverty and despair the state systematically prevents the poor from making something of themselves. The LVT is an antidote to this.

[ApresAlkan]

(Original post by chefdave)
The system you propose is the one we have now (just with even more taxation). The system of economic stagnation; recession; high unemployment; unsustainable deficit spending and a disenfranchised working confused as to why they're unable to make it off the first rung of the ladder. Yes the fantasy of socialism is "cradle to grave" welfare, but the reality is often grinding poverty and despair the state systematically prevents the poor from making something of themselves. The LVT is an antidote to this.

The system I propose is very similar to Sweden... Which has no poverty and almost the best education in the world. There is social mobility and success universally.

Don't you think that's a good thing?