[The Doggfather]

I was taught German from year 7 to year 11, got an A at GCSE

I'm in year 13 now and literally cannot put a sentence together

Quite frankly there's no point, if everyone is learning English instead that is

[Smack]

No. No-one has ever given me a convincing reason for making foreign languages compulsory. For the vast, vast majority it's going to be a waste of time; time that they could better put to use by learning something else or playing sports or something.

Also to the OP: only a very small amount of us live in a multicultural society.

[BadCoverVersion]

I'm in the dark as to why it should be that 10 to 11 do more hours than in the younger years, who are required only to do one hour.

This hypothetical bill strikes me as somewhat futile: consistent evidence has shown that the only method of ensuring that kids are multilingual is to start from a young age. By age sixteen, I'm inclined to say that people tend to know whether they are cut out for languages or not: but only by starting early with heavy doses of European languages will they be able to know.

I'd appreciate an elaboration on this point, as it feels more like a gesture of recognition towards multiculturalism than a progressive move towards that ideal itself.

[Pin]

People often point to other countries, how many people in other European countries are multilingual in comparison to Britain and our lingual failings. I don't believe the comparison is fair.

Firstly many European countries are saturated with English movies and music, with English words often being incorporated colloquially.

Secondly many European languages are very similar eg. Spanish and Italian. A Spaniard can be understood when speaking Spanish to an Italian.

Thirdly, many European countries concentrate fully on one language. eg. Nearly all French children start to learn English as their first foreign language. Most Spaniards start with French before going on to English. In Britain there is such a range of languages to learn, even from Year 7, whereas I think there would be more collective learning if everyone in the country started with one other language.

Fourthly most people do not understand why they need to learn a foreign language. Language is about communication and if you can already be understood, what is the benefits of learning another language.

These points being said, personally I do enjoy learning languages. I would definitely say though that 1 hour is not nearly enough to actually learn a language. I think a great idea would be a language day... eg. Monday/Tuesday - French Wed/Thurs - English and Fri- German. Wouldn't that be fun .. but maybe not so practical

[llys]

So many people are saying young children learn faster. I personally don't think that's true. I realize this is such a widespread myth/opinion that everyone just accepts it as fact. Does anyone know the original study behind this statement? Because I would be very curious who originally came up with this and what they actually did to come up with it.

I could imagine that young children's pronunciation may eventually be better (when they are older) because they will have listened to the language for longer. In everything else, I personally think a motivated teenager would beat a motivated toddler any day. Certainly all the toddlers I have experience of.

Anyway, like other people have said one or two hours a week is not going to cut it, even for hyper-motivated toddlers. You should propose 5h a week. You could cut assemblies, PSHE and tutor group meetings, or do all those things in the foreign language.

[Rakas21]

Whilst i do not significantly support multiculturalism as i believe in social integration i do believe that a foreign language should be compulsory from primary school but limited to French, German, Spanish and Portuguese.

I actually support this as a cross-European policy with the inclusion of English.

[tehFrance]

(Original post by Rakas21)
Limited to French, German, Spanish and Portuguese.

Why? Russian is more of an important European language than Portuguese... May as well throw in Italian as Spanish and Italian are virtually the same, obviously there are differences but once you have learnt one, you have learnt the other

But yeah this motion isn't good, I would never have learnt English if I only had 1-2 hours a week of it, I did it a lot from the moment I was speaking French... as for those saying young children don't learn as fast as we think, you are wrong, if you teach a baby two (or more languages) simultaneously they will learn both languages to as well as they are taught by their parents/teacher... obviously as they get older it is harder but still, it is very much possible.

[toronto353]

(Original post by tehFrance)
Why? Russian is more of an important European language than Portuguese... May as well throw in Italian as Spanish and Italian are virtually the same, obviously there are differences but once you have learnt one, you have learnt the other

But yeah this motion isn't good, I would never have learnt English if I only had 1-2 hours a week of it, I did it a lot from the moment I was speaking French... as for those saying young children don't learn as fast as we think, you are wrong, if you teach a baby two (or more languages) simultaneously they will learn both languages to as well as they are taught by their parents/teacher... obviously as they get older it is harder but still, it is very much possible.

Oh it is definitely easier if you're younger I agree, but actually there are problems with primary school teaching and the method of teaching English in primary schools which makes it much harder to integrate MFL teaching into the primary school curriculum. With regards to Welsh (as someone mentioned), it's because the system is leaning more towards a bilingual system and the fact that both languages are used in and out of school that it works. We don't have that same advantage in England though and so it is more difficult to get it to work here.

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by toronto353)
Oh it is definitely easier if you're younger I agree, but actually there are problems with primary school teaching and the method of teaching English in primary schools which makes it much harder to integrate MFL teaching into the primary school curriculum. With regards to Welsh (as someone mentioned), it's because the system is leaning more towards a bilingual system and the fact that both languages are used in and out of school that it works. We don't have that same advantage in England though and so it is more difficult to get it to work here.

It doesn't really work, though. For most people, their Welsh is limited to understanding announcements at train stations and the various loan-words that have entered regional Welsh dialects. Welsh is imposed from the top down in a rather draconian method these days. Bilingualism is an organic process - the Dutch are largely bilingual for instance and are so because of immersion in the English language from a young age. People don't read Welsh newspapers, they don't watch Welsh telly, and there's no such thing as Welsh cinema really. To have a properly bilingual society you need such things so that people immerse themselves on a regular basis in both languages. And, finally, don't be fooled. Welsh take up of foreign languages has plummetted since the imposition of Welsh. Why? Because there's no time in the curriculum for them. Integrating foreign languages has to start at primary level but it's pointless for just 1 hour a week. It needs to be far more organic so that things are done, always, side-by-side. That requires bilingual teachers...

[toronto353]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
It doesn't really work, though. For most people, their Welsh is limited to understanding announcements at train stations and the various loan-words that have entered regional Welsh dialects. Welsh is imposed from the top down in a rather draconian method these days. Bilingualism is an organic process - the Dutch are largely bilingual for instance and are so because of immersion in the English language from a young age. People don't read Welsh newspapers, they don't watch Welsh telly, and there's no such thing as Welsh cinema really. To have a properly bilingual society you need such things so that people immerse themselves on a regular basis in both languages. And, finally, don't be fooled. Welsh take up of foreign languages has plummetted since the imposition of Welsh. Why? Because there's no time in the curriculum for them. Integrating foreign languages has to start at primary level but it's pointless for just 1 hour a week. It needs to be far more organic so that things are done, always, side-by-side. That requires bilingual teachers...

Thanks for clarifying the point about Wales. Your post is exactly the point I'm trying to get across though. Unless there is actually a radical overhaul of a) primary school teaching to allow this to occur for the amount of time it would need; b) the way that we train teachers in this country and c) the attitudes of parents, this is just a pipe dream in primary schools. The other problem is how would this work for children who can't read well at all? English is taught using phonetics and some languages (e.g. French) have a different pronunciation thus confusing those children further. You'd end up with a multi-layered system.

[Jim-Jam]

Did French for 5 years, it was awful. Only had the option of doing French or German too which I had no interest in and saw no benefit in!

Ended up with an F overall at GCSE, after it being a compulsory subject, bringing my GCSE score down, and students in year 9 now don't even ave to do a Language.

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by toronto353)
Thanks for clarifying the point about Wales. Your post is exactly the point I'm trying to get across though. Unless there is actually a radical overhaul of a) primary school teaching to allow this to occur for the amount of time it would need; b) the way that we train teachers in this country and c) the attitudes of parents, this is just a pipe dream in primary schools. The other problem is how would this work for children who can't read well at all? English is taught using phonetics and some languages (e.g. French) have a different pronunciation thus confusing those children further. You'd end up with a multi-layered system.

The teaching of English through phonetics is a high-road to confusion an *******s. I've watched my niece slide backwards in her reading and writing because of being taught phonetically. Tell me the one thing that English is absolutely not: phonetic! Children are being confused by the system that the Government thinks is brilliant.

[toronto353]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
The teaching of English through phonetics is a high-road to confusion an *******s. I've watched my niece slide backwards in her reading and writing because of being taught phonetically. Tell me the one thing that English is absolutely not: phonetic! Children are being confused by the system that the Government thinks is brilliant.

Absolutely agree with this as well. It works up to a point, but English obviously then stops following any kind of rules after a while, but how's a child meant to know that? It's an absolutely ridiculous system which constrains children and doesn't allow any leeway for different learning styles. It's phonics or nothing quite simply - an appalling approach to teaching our language.

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by toronto353)
Absolutely agree with this as well. It works up to a point, but English obviously then stops following any kind of rules after a while, but how's a child meant to know that? It's an absolutely ridiculous system which constrains children and doesn't allow any leeway for different learning styles. It's phonics or nothing quite simply - an appalling approach to teaching our language.

Ah now, don't go all "our language" on me. This isn't about English alone. It's about the impact of poor teaching on every single aspect of language learning: about the lack of recognition that standardised forms are merely one form of language that can be learnt. English has a standard, yes, but it's nowhere near as ubiquitous as that in Danish. Teaching by rote phonics undermines a child's capacity to embrace language as any other new thing. When I was in primary school, we had a branch of "Le Club Francais" come around. It was only funded by the council for a year and parents had to pay money towards it. My parents cut out a few luxuries for that year and I went along. Being able to recognise words in my dad's battered copies of Tintin brought sheer delight and for the rest of my time in school, my French was better than almost everyone else. I'm almost certain because of the simplest lessons I had as a 6 year old.

That's the kind of thing we could provide: after school clubs for those that want them. Smack makes a good point above, learning French or German or Italian is not for everyone. Let's give those who do want to the best chance we can.

[toronto353]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
Ah now, don't go all "our language" on me. This isn't about English alone. It's about the impact of poor teaching on every single aspect of language learning: about the lack of recognition that standardised forms are merely one form of language that can be learnt. English has a standard, yes, but it's nowhere near as ubiquitous as that in Danish. Teaching by rote phonics undermines a child's capacity to embrace language as any other new thing. When I was in primary school, we had a branch of "Le Club Francais" come around. It was only funded by the council for a year and parents had to pay money towards it. My parents cut out a few luxuries for that year and I went along. Being able to recognise words in my dad's battered copies of Tintin brought sheer delight and for the rest of my time in school, my French was better than almost everyone else. I'm almost certain because of the simplest lessons I had as a 6 year old.

That's the kind of thing we could provide: after school clubs for those that want them. Smack makes a good point above, learning French or German or Italian is not for everyone. Let's give those who do want to the best chance we can.

I thought that we were only talking about English at that point, but you're right, the problem is there for the teaching of every language. I differ from your view slightly. We ought to let every child have a go at a language for a while (not too long, but long enough so that one can see if a) they're enjoying learning the language and b) if they're any good at it). Then obviously use the clubs etc which are a great method of learning languages. I joined a club to learn Greek for three years. It helped me tremendously and was a fun way to actually start learning the new language.

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by toronto353)
I thought that we were only talking about English at that point, but you're right, the problem is there for the teaching of every language. I differ from your view slightly. We ought to let every child have a go at a language for a while (not too long, but long enough so that one can see if a) they're enjoying learning the language and b) if they're any good at it). Then obviously use the clubs etc which are a great method of learning languages. I joined a club to learn Greek for three years. It helped me tremendously and was a fun way to actually start learning the new language.

Well letting children all have a go is common sense, so I skipped over that to thinking about how to extent provision to those that really do want to learn foreign languages. I do that a lot.

[toronto353]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
Well letting children all have a go is common sense, so I skipped over that to thinking about how to extent provision to those that really do want to learn foreign languages. I do that a lot.

I forgive you this time.

We need to look to extend the provision for learning foreign languages to those who want it. Hopefully we can look to adapt the petition in this regard.

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by toronto353)
I forgive you this time.

We need to look to extend the provision for learning foreign languages to those who want it. Hopefully we can look to adapt the petition in this regard.

Hopefully, until the Tories wake up to it being about foreign languages and blame it all on the EU or the Libertarians fly in and start claiming that clearly private enterprise can deliver language education much better than anything government can do 'cause the market will ensure that languages that appeal most to people will thrive whilst those that don't will die a horrible capitalist death (oh but it's such fun to see). Why so serious?

[toronto353]

(Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
Hopefully, until the Tories wake up to it being about foreign languages and blame it all on the EU or the Libertarians fly in and start claiming that clearly private enterprise can deliver language education much better than anything government can do 'cause the market will ensure that languages that appeal most to people will thrive whilst those that don't will die a horrible capitalist death (oh but it's such fun to see). Why so serious?

I think that this is probably where TSR UKIP moves away from the right because we support moves to improve the teaching of foreign languages. Language is one of the most fascinating aspects of humanity really.

[obi_adorno_kenobi]

(Original post by toronto353)
I think that this is probably where TSR UKIP moves away from the right because we support moves to improve the teaching of foreign languages. Language is one of the most fascinating aspects of humanity really.

It helps that UKIP is lead by someone with a broad mind...