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I don't know where I sit with Syria

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    There are just so many sources and conflicting reports with syria, I hear all over various forums that most syrians actually support assad, but a minority of Syrian extremists have aligned themselves with mercenaries, syrian exiles, Lebanese terrorists, Egyptian terrorists, Iraqi mercenaries. But then we hear stories from opposition groups ... and our media, that Assad's army killed X amount of people, and that he has led the brutal crack down on the protests last year, but a Syrian Friend of mine on palchat tells me that destabalisation of syria is exactly what the US, Israel and the Arab League want.

    As a disclaimer, the western media is clearly against Assad, and on a massive scale, this just SCREAMS to me that intervention is a-foot, it reminds me of the Iraq intervetion and "Weapons Of Mass Destruction".

    I don't want to write a great tome on two sides of the story, so (because I'm often accused of not providing enough sources) I just seperate into this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSjGLhTyF9o - Pro Assad University Students in Aleppo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJK34FDnUVU - Syrian Pro Assad "reformation" doctors in the UK
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-Ueb8g34rA - German-Syrians Pro Assad rally
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qn6Snf__nxY - Christians attacked by rebels (I know its RT, so there is a Bias)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1StSFCdZ7_4 - Pro assad syrian citizens
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EWre9mRgcQ - Syrian-Turks, pro assad rally
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7zFUaDOPCE - Huge pro-assad rally in capital
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wLfxgMPKYA - Triploi, Lebannon, pro assad rally
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRgvI7VFNzM - Pro Assad, anti-arab league demo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOBfZT-Z69I - Pro Assad demo in Holland
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwjgatyzN5w - Pro Assad Supporter on a plane!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9dQk...F56A4D10AB788E
    - Syrian-Australians, Pro assad march - sydney

    Have a channel, http://www.youtube.com/user/ProBasharRallysWorld/videos, pro assad rally's and marhes from Denmark, Sweden, France, South America, Cyprus and various other Countries/cities.

    There are hundreds and hundreds of videos of pro-assad rallies in Aleppo and
    Damascus where tens of thousands attend.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/SyriaTruthNetworkEN/videos, channel exposing Rebels faking deaths, killing civilians, killing alleged pro-assad civilians,

    http://www.youtube.com/user/TimeToFightBack1 the "Free Syrian army", terrorists, Lebanese Militants and Mercenaries killing various civilians and those that are even part of the FSA, who dare to criticise them.

    Christians tagetted by Islamist Rebels

    http://barnabasfund.org/Christians-i...-100-dead.html
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2848301/posts
    http://www.catholicfreepress.org/int...lic-officials/

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/17425759 - Interview with Assad supporters in London

    Hell, even Hezbollah is pro Assad http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news...-dictator?lite
    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/mi...e-syrian-army/

    There are also tens of other sources linking Al-Qaeda and affiliated groups who have joined with the FSA.

    Anyway, I get the impression that there are two sides to the story. One is that Syria is/was the most liberal Arabic nation, but Islamist Militants and various extremists groups have used the arab spring as an opportunity to throw a relatively liberal dictatorship over and install an islamist - muslim brotherhood presence in syrian politics/society, ala Egypt and Libya. The US, Israel, Nato and western media portray Assad as an evil boogey man since destabalisting muslims nations approaching liberalism has been a common trait through out the 20th century.

    I fear this will be Afghanistan all over again too, Assad is backed by Russia, the rebels are/will be backed by the west, a **** load of **** happens and the nation falls into less than savoury hands.
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    My view of it is that it started off as most peaceful demonstrations that Assad put down with force, which in turn gave birth to the rebel and terrorist groups. There is no doubt in my mind that at this point both sides are as bad as each other.
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    I wouldn’t worry America will probably destroy the country and slaughter the civilian population err I mean liberate the people and steal the oil err I mean kill everything install a puppet government and send their injured tropes home to die on the streets homeless and penniless err you know what I mean.

    Sending out forget-me-nots
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    not that Britain is any better or indeed anyone else
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    What's the best thing we can do when a conflict like this erupts?

    Stay the hell out of it.
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    America is just torturing people in the name of democracy.
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    Not our country, not our problem.
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    Anyone pro-Assad (in the West, at least) should examine carefully whatever passes for their conscience. OP speaks of Syria as having been a 'liberal dictatorship'. What a joke. Sure, there might have been some anti-veil secular window dressing, but in recent years Freedom House has given the same ranking in terms of Human rights to Syria as to North Korea. Anyone who thinks some peripheral social liberalism (and remember Syria is fundamentally patriarchal even though it does not require veils and homosexuality remains a criminal offence) on the part of the Assad regime makes their totalitarianism (I do not use the word lightly) acceptable is, to me, either unbalanced or morally impaired.

    We should remember who is, at least in principle, fighting for freedom. You think the rebels would have taken to arms if they had a choice? Should they have lined up in the streets to be bombed and shot by their own army? The rebels are deserving of our support, simply because there is at least the hope of a better future. The Assad regime, a kleptocratic tyranny run by a self-interested sectarian clique does not and cannot, by definition offer that.
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    (Original post by UPPSY)
    I wouldn’t worry America will probably destroy the country and slaughter the civilian population err I mean liberate the people and steal the oil err I mean kill everything install a puppet government and send their injured tropes home to die on the streets homeless and penniless err you know what I mean.

    Sending out forget-me-nots
    I love you.
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    Not our country, not our responsibility and tbh we should not be supporting either side, both look as bad as each other. We won't be thanked for trying to help them and chances are we wont be able to do much good anyway.
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    I can't comprehend how people can say 'not our problem'?

    I mean, that is exactly the same attitude people took during the Rwandan genocide. They shrugged it off until it became too late and 20% of the country were killed. When mass amounts of people are being killed, one should not just ignore it.
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    Well the UN were told to observe and that's exactly what they've been doing: observing the massacre that's unfolded before their very eyes, before our own eyes, and we're following the UN's lead. The 'peacekeepers' (in quotation marks considering that there's not a peace to keep) are being put in the firing line whilst Western nations turn a blind eye to what's going on. It infuriates me that people cannot see that this is a moral problem. What the hell kind of society are we when we champion the rule of law and democracy and then turn a blind eye to every tyrant and genocidaire for fear of upsetting the Russians or the Chinese? Whilst Obama is plodding along twiddling his thumbs and hoping that nothing dare go wrong on an election year, Kofi Annan has decided that a UN peace plan for Syria would probably work best if Assad himself were to dictate the terms and settle a peace when he feels ready for it. The views of the people who have commented so far (ranging from the ignorant, "just stay out of it", to the conspiratorially psychopathic, "the US only want to intervene for the oil") are a sickening yet harrowing reminder that many people in the West are happy to view these kinds of actions as just another form of statecraft, that somehow Assad isn't actually doing anything wrong, or at the very least is acting just like we do as someone above seems to have said about the UK. If you cannot tell the difference between the British form of government and the consensual democracy that we have here and in countries such as the USA, France, Canada, etc. on one hand, and the brutality of Assad's sectarian regime on the other, then you are not capable of making any moral judgement at all and should probably consider sitting out this debate.
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    I am one of these people who thinks that the West should not take matters into owns hands, we tried with Iraq and failed. The UNSC Resolution was for peacekeepers to observe the Ceasefire negotiated by Kofi Annan. Since then there have been violence and now is the time to discuss using Chapter 7 of the Charter, action. Assad should go and should be tried in the Hague.
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    it's all a big game of chess
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    (Original post by Rhadamanthus)
    Well the UN were told to observe and that's exactly what they've been doing: observing the massacre that's unfolded before their very eyes, before our own eyes, and we're following the UN's lead. The 'peacekeepers' (in quotation marks considering that there's not a peace to keep) are being put in the firing line whilst Western nations turn a blind eye to what's going on. It infuriates me that people cannot see that this is a moral problem. What the hell kind of society are we when we champion the rule of law and democracy and then turn a blind eye to every tyrant and genocidaire for fear of upsetting the Russians or the Chinese? Whilst Obama is plodding along twiddling his thumbs and hoping that nothing dare go wrong on an election year, Kofi Annan has decided that a UN peace plan for Syria would probably work best if Assad himself were to dictate the terms and settle a peace when he feels ready for it. The views of the people who have commented so far (ranging from the ignorant, "just stay out of it", to the conspiratorially psychopathic, "the US only want to intervene for the oil") are a sickening yet harrowing reminder that many people in the West are happy to view these kinds of actions as just another form of statecraft, that somehow Assad isn't actually doing anything wrong, or at the very least is acting just like we do as someone above seems to have said about the UK. If you cannot tell the difference between the British form of government and the consensual democracy that we have here and in countries such as the USA, France, Canada, etc. on one hand, and the brutality of Assad's sectarian regime on the other, then you are not capable of making any moral judgement at all and should probably consider sitting out this debate.
    Well, if we look at History, presidents that win a second term usually get themselves involved in some war somewhere to get support from the population. But with Obama, the republicans are winning his election for him, I mean, Mitt Romney? Jeez. Obama will probably roll back troops accross the middle east, then when the economy falls in stagnation ... try get employment figure up by starting a war somewhere. Iran perhaps? Since Obama will truely pee off American in his next term, the republicans are rumoured to be getting Mccain back, and he will need a war to him and his corporate backers back in the driving seat.
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    (Original post by prog2djent)
    Well, if we look at History, presidents that win a second term usually get themselves involved in some war somewhere to get support from the population. But with Obama, the republicans are winning his election for him, I mean, Mitt Romney? Jeez. Obama will probably roll back troops accross the middle east, then when the economy falls in stagnation ... try get employment figure up by starting a war somewhere. Iran perhaps? Since Obama will truely pee off American in his next term, the republicans are rumoured to be getting Mccain back, and he will need a war to him and his corporate backers back in the driving seat.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jffUN...ipcontrinter=1

    If this has no impact for you, I truly feel sorry for you.
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    Great post. The tragedy here is that the only side of the story people know is the 'Assad the brutal child killing dictator' one. Seeing as there is no press allowed in Syria the only information coming out is from these rebel groups and government statements and it's always the same story. Anything rebels say is treated as complete, undisputable fact whereas anything the government says is a massive lie. Here's an example of what I mean, this is how BBC report on it: 'Reports say that Assad forces shelled homs killing up to x children in a brutal crackdown' or 'The syrian regime claimed on state TV that terrorists bombed x government building but opposition say Assad forces are responsible'.

    Personally, I'm sure that Syria is no great paradise. But this uprising is not natural, it's not a popular rebellion. It's a civil war that itself is a proxy war with on one side the West, Israel and the sunni Arab states and on the other side being Iran (the base of shi'ite muslims), Russia and China.
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    (Original post by Reform)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jffUN...ipcontrinter=1

    If this has no impact for you, I truly feel sorry for you.
    I've seen hundreds of videos, attrocities have been commited by both sides

    Also

    http://www.youtube.com/user/TimeToFightBack1



    http://www.youtube.com/user/TimeToFightBack1

    ^ I suggest you watch every video on that channel, its gives more of a balanced view of the FSA and Syrian Forces ... mate.
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    (Original post by antimilitarist)
    What's the best thing we can do when a conflict like this erupts?

    Stay the hell out of it.

    (Original post by internetguru)
    Not our country, not our problem.

    (Original post by Darth Stewie)
    Not our country, not our responsibility and tbh we should not be supporting either side, both look as bad as each other. We won't be thanked for trying to help them and chances are we wont be able to do much good anyway.
    Syria is fast becoming a hotbed of Islamic extremism and another country al Qaeda is starting to infiltrate. Fighters from Iraq Afghanistan Somalia and Yemen are entering the country to fight. If the West does nothing Syria will merely become like Yemen or Somalia or Afghanistan another country that al Qaeda can train and gather terrorists. People who say this does not affect us may feel differently when in a few years time terrorist attacks are being planned and launched from another failed state. The Middle East is one of the most strategically important areas of the world, everything that happens there affects us.
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    I am one of these people who thinks that the West should not take matters into owns hands, we tried with Iraq and failed. The UNSC Resolution was for peacekeepers to observe the Ceasefire negotiated by Kofi Annan. Since then there have been violence and now is the time to discuss using Chapter 7 of the Charter, action. Assad should go and should be tried in the Hague.
    Syria profited to the tune of 3 billion US dollars when Kofi Annan was overseeing the oil-for-food programme in Iraq. Whilst Saddam was engaging in illegitimate oil deals to pay the families of Palestinian suicide bombers and furnish his palaces, Kofi Annan was praising the programme and calling for its expansion. Now he's overseeing another massacre and all the while saying that if Assad wants to negotiate then it will be on his terms, leaving the Syrian people caught in the middle without any backing from the UN, who are doing a great job 'observing'. At least in Iraq action was swiftly taken and the regime was toppled in a matter of days. Contrast that swift regime change with the mealy-mouthed criticism of Assad (that can't be taken too far lest we upset the Kremlin) and the fact that the UN have effectively overseen the massacre of over ten thousand people over the course of one year. Assad should go, whether it be to the Hague or in an orgy of bullets fired by the US.

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