[Spaz Man]

That's like asking "How long is a piece of string?"

[Deep456]

(Original post by Tsunami2011)
Have you not considered that these law graduates that you speak of we're simply not good enough? So many factors determine whether or not you make it in law. Most people who I personally know who did Law at top universities and got involved with societies etc got a reputable job. Working in a top city firm is about far more then academics. You won't succeed without the commercial awareness, personality or many other traits. Law firms do not sponsor law societies at leading universities for the fun of it. Law is being depicted as a useless degree arm, because every Tom, Dick and Harry reckons that they can get onto a GDL after coasting through university. To say that only Oxbridge/LSE/UCl law degrees are valuable is off the mark.There is a notable excess of graduates full stop.


This was posted from The Student Room's iPhone/iPad App

1) Quote me where I said Law is useless or 'depicting it' as such. You can't put words into my mouth or visualise ludicrous things.

2) A good number of these people had GDLs which as it happened, did not help them at all. Their words, not mine. Most of these top firms you are talking about, essentially cherry-pick Oxbridge Law students and the likes of LSE/UCL to a lesser extent. You are left with people from all the other universities (and sometimes LSE/UCL) fighting for the remaining limited places and you wonder why it is tough. Of course loads of work experience and contacts are going to give you a shot, no one is denying that.

Anyway, I am prepared to go along with what you have said just for a bit of cross-examination. So lets get this straight, you are telling me then that people from good universities with 2.1s who also had SOME work-experience and some social skills (demonstrated obviously because they have gained internships within notable political parties and had to go through a fairly rigorous interview for that) are not good enough. In other words, Law is not a degree that will guarantee you a job...why do you disagree then with anything that I have said?

4) I didn't say only Oxbridge/LSE/UCL law degrees are only valuable...what I actually said was outside those universities, it's not a golden degree to have at the moment for career prospects or most specifically, the best one; since this is the thread that we are on.

Whilst I agree that there are a lot of excess graduates, some fields supply is outstripping demand far higher than others. Law being one such field which many people know and it is common knowledge. Anyway should you disagree, the guy who I quoted had a father who was actually active in the field saying similar things. So no full stop, case closed business. We aren't five and forming arguments using the type 1 definition from the dictionary, as in quarrels.

[TRStemporaryusername]

(Original post by see-are)
I took maths at uni

Well, clearly from your previous posts, it appears you didn't do very well at it.

[Tsunami2011]

(Original post by Deep456)
1) Quote me where I said Law is useless or 'depicting it' as such. You can't put words into my mouth or visualise ludicrous things.

I wouldn't say it's a really good degree to have at the moment

Would be intrigued to see your list of non-science subjects which are objectively better degree to have than Law at the moment.

2) A good number of these people had GDLs which as it happened, did not help them at all. Their words, not mine. Most of these top firms you are talking about, essentially cherry-pick Oxbridge Law students and the likes of LSE/UCL to a lesser extent. You are left with people from all the other universities (and sometimes LSE/UCL) fighting for the remaining limited places and you wonder why it is tough. Of course loads of work experience and contacts are going to give you a shot, no one is denying that.

You completely missed my point about the GDL, and what you've said has actually supported what I was saying about every Tom, Dick and Harry attempting the GDL after finishing university. So many people attempt the GDL despite only having a very small chance of success, but this is THEIR fault, not the fault of the industry. You initially said that on your internship you met a 'good number of law students' yet now you say 'a good number of these people had GDLs' GDL holders are not law graduates in this context. A GDL is available to anyone with a big enough chequebook, regardless of where and what you studied. Your point about Oxbridge is valid, but you vastly under estimate the amount of TC places available per year. Your view of it is far too simplistic, I doubt firms rigidly outline that each intake of trainees must have a specified % of Oxbridge graduates. However,the best candidates on the whole come from Oxbridge, but top students from other strong universities are likely to at least get interviews and from that stage it is all down to you. Even at the most elitist firms only around 40% will be from Oxbridge.

Anyway, I am prepared to go along with what you have said just for a bit of cross-examination. So lets get this straight, you are telling me then that people from good universities with 2.1s who also had SOME work-experience and some social skills (demonstrated obviously because they have gained internships within notable political parties and had to go through a fairly rigorous interview for that) are not good enough. In other words, Law is not a degree that will guarantee you a job...why do you disagree then with anything that I have said?

Was this work experience or an actual paid internship? You cannot even begin to compare an actual graduate job offer with an internship lasting a few weeks. The standard required and level of competition is vastly different. You have still ignored the numerous variable factors, i.e how strong was their 2:1? How did they answer their application form? how did they perform in any interviews? Were they commercially aware? Did they take active roles in societies? Had they researched thoroughly about the firms which they applied to? the list is endless. I'm disagreeing largely because when did ANY degree bar the obvious guarantee you a job? Not even the majority of science subjects guarantee you a worthwhile job.Where there is competition, there will be those who miss out. It is utopian to think that any profession can cater to the excess amount of law graduates. Clearly, there is an excess of law graduates, but when you can do Law at universities ranging from A*A*AA to CCD it is to be expected.

I didn't say only Oxbridge/LSE/UCL law degrees are only valuable...what I actually said was outside those universities, it's not a golden degree to have at the moment for career prospects or most specifically, the best one; since this is the thread that we are on.

I would agree here, but would limit this to Oxbridge. If you were to look at the figures, representation from other top universities after Oxbridge is roughly comparable. So what degrees do you deem as a 'golden' degree bar Medicine.

Whilst I agree that there are a lot of excess graduates, some fields supply is outstripping demand far higher than others. Law being one such field which many people know and it is common knowledge. Anyway should you disagree, the guy who I quoted had a father who was actually active in the field saying similar things. So no full stop, case closed business. We aren't five and forming arguments using the type 1 definition from the dictionary, as in quarrels.

What you're failing to understand is the distinction between strong law graduates and law graduates whose degree has minimal value. Clearly,it is silly to suggest that someone with a Law degree from London Met is well placed, but if you're doing a Law degree at one of the top 10/15 universities, it is a strong degree to have. I Would accept that there are quite a few other stronger degrees to have, but even many of the sciences require further education to prevent just being a lab rat. lol 'actually active' is that a dig? My closest friend's dad is a partner at a SC firm, so I'm not plucking this all out of thin air.

[Sean9001]

(Original post by cgraham15)
I plan on doing an undergrad in Law and then one, or two, postgrads in business related fields. Law is competitive and difficult so if I pass people will take notice, and business is useful and always needed everywhere.

Just a piece of constructive advice: My aunty is a consultant for Capgemini, and I asked her what she thought about taking a masters in business or management straight after my degree. She said that it was a very bad idea unless it was the Oxford BCL. Employers [apparently] think you become too academically minded, and adapt less well to putting knowledge into practice. However, she also said that for any aspiring individual, doing a business or management degree ~5 years into your career will be very worthwhile as well as alot easier.

[OddThings]

I agree with previous posters,in terms of Medicine,Dentistry,through people I know and average earnings,starting figures etc...however I also feel Foreign Languages,whether they are German,Mandarin,Spanish etc... also offer relatively good career prospects.It does arguably differ from language to language,general demand for certain languages in the global market,experience gained, graduates themselves...etc of course there are variables,but just my two pennies. I'm wanting to apply for such myself next year however money didn't figure highly on my list when thinking about degrees,mainly my passion for languages however it does play a part nonetheless.

[Deep456]

(Original post by Tsunami2011)
Would be intrigued to see your list of non-science subjects which are objectively better degree to have than Law at the moment.



You completely missed my point about the GDL, and what you've said has actually supported what I was saying about every Tom, Dick and Harry attempting the GDL after finishing university. So many people attempt the GDL despite only having a very small chance of success, but this is THEIR fault, not the fault of the industry. You initially said that on your internship you met a 'good number of law students' yet now you say 'a good number of these people had GDLs' GDL holders are not law graduates in this context. A GDL is available to anyone with a big enough chequebook, regardless of where and what you studied. Your point about Oxbridge is valid, but you vastly under estimate the amount of TC places available per year. Your view of it is far too simplistic, I doubt firms rigidly outline that each intake of trainees must have a specified % of Oxbridge graduates. However,the best candidates on the whole come from Oxbridge, but top students from other strong universities are likely to at least get interviews and from that stage it is all down to you. Even at the most elitist firms only around 40% will be from Oxbridge.



Was this work experience or an actual paid internship? You cannot even begin to compare an actual graduate job offer with an internship lasting a few weeks. The standard required and level of competition is vastly different. You have still ignored the numerous variable factors, i.e how strong was their 2:1? How did they answer their application form? how did they perform in any interviews? Were they commercially aware? Did they take active roles in societies? Had they researched thoroughly about the firms which they applied to? the list is endless. I'm disagreeing largely because when did ANY degree bar the obvious guarantee you a job? Not even the majority of science subjects guarantee you a worthwhile job.Where there is competition, there will be those who miss out. It is utopian to think that any profession can cater to the excess amount of law graduates. Clearly, there is an excess of law graduates, but when you can do Law at universities ranging from A*A*AA to CCD it is to be expected.



I would agree here, but would limit this to Oxbridge. If you were to look at the figures, representation from other top universities after Oxbridge is roughly comparable. So what degrees do you deem as a 'golden' degree bar Medicine.



What you're failing to understand is the distinction between strong law graduates and law graduates whose degree has minimal value. Clearly,it is silly to suggest that someone with a Law degree from London Met is well placed, but if you're doing a Law degree at one of the top 10/15 universities, it is a strong degree to have. I Would accept that there are quite a few other stronger degrees to have, but even many of the sciences require further education to prevent just being a lab rat. lol 'actually active' is that a dig? My closest friend's dad is a partner at a SC firm, so I'm not plucking this all out of thin air.

1) You do realise the difference between 'not being really good' and 'useless'? So you failed to quote anything productive, as I expected.

2) There were both Law LLB graduates and similar masters and people with GDLs, both of which have studied Law.... so I don't really see what context you are talking about. A GDL is still a Law degree...........

3) Seriously, you always over analyse things and at times, you are like a dog with a bone. It wasn't a dig.

In your haste to big up your own degree, you have missed the point of the thread that was 'which degree is the best to have?'. Obviously, this is subjective but in terms of employment. In context, Law isn't the best to have.

4) Better degrees for employment out of the ones that are offered on mass-scale: Economics, Medicine, Dentistry, Mathematics, Engineering, I think I have named enough already. The thread is the best degrees to have, not the best non-science degrees... From the point of view of employment, these are better.

[bs3ac]

(Original post by Kenocide)
Rightly so, surely?

You can't seriously think that two people who do 'the same' degree at different unis, one which required AAA at A level and one which required CCC, are the same and should thus be treated as equally qualified if they both graduated with a 2:1?

It is surely a mixture of course, classification AND university that should indicate the worth of a degree.

A typical view taken by most undergrads.
When you do eventually find work, you, like most will come to the realization 6 months worth of working experience is worth more than all years of college combined.
That is why statistics show employers have a 70% greater chance of employing a postgraduate who took a placement.
I have been working for a year now and talk from experience. A similar view taken by all the other grads that started the same time as me.

[louisjevans]

Geology

Oil industry part

[bs3ac]

As for law degrees. I know someone who passed last year and had offers of employment by two well known law firms within 3 months of graduating.

She worked hard and put the effort in.

I'm willing to bet 90%+ of people claiming there is no work could do more in succeeding to find a career opportunity.

Some wont like me saying that but I stand by my view.

[King-Panther]

(Original post by pepeeglesfield)
In this day and age, jobs are hard to come by, which degree do YOU think gives you the best chance in obtaining secure well paying job for the future?

Economics can take you down many prosperous paths.

[Tsunami2011]

(Original post by Deep456)
x

2) There were both Law LLB graduates and similar masters and people with GDLs, both of which have studied Law.... so I don't really see what context you are talking about. A GDL is still a Law degree...........

A GDL is essentially the core contents of law condensed into a year's study. It is designed to provide someone with the bare minimum knowledge required to be a trained lawyer. It is a diploma, and the point which you continue to miss is that ANYONE can get onto a GDL regardless of what they study or where they study. For example someone with a 2:2 in History from Southampton Solent can get onto the GDL, but are unlikely to find any success later on. It would be stupid to claim that this all down to the competitiveness of the industry. Just because someone wants a job in law it doesn't make them good enough.

4) Better degrees for employment out of the ones that are offered on mass-scale: Economics, Medicine, Dentistry, Mathematics, Engineering, I think I have named enough already. The thread is the best degrees to have, not the best non-science degrees... From the point of view of employment, these are better.

Why on earth have you put Economics there? Nice to see your bias coming through. Just like Law Economics is offered at the vast majority of universities, Economics in particular certainly has an excess of graduates just like Law, but the fact that the career path of Economics graduates is less pre-determined is makes the plight of Law students more obvious. I know of Economics graduates from a range of universities who are out of work, or working in completely unrelated fields. I could quite easily say that outside of Oxbridge/LSE Economics is not a golden degree to have in regards to finding employment, just as you said about Law. So I have no idea how you can say that an Economics degree provides OVERALL better job prospects than a Law degree on a mass scale, considering the amount of universities which offer it but whatever this is going nowhere fast.

[nulli tertius]

(Original post by Tsunami2011)
A GDL is essentially the core contents of law condensed into a year's study. It is designed to provide someone with the bare minimum knowledge required to be a trained lawyer. It is a diploma, and the point which you continue to miss is that ANYONE can get onto a GDL regardless of what they study or where they study. For example someone with a 2:2 in History from Southampton Solent can get onto the GDL, but are unlikely to find any success later on. It would be stupid to claim that this all down to the competitiveness of the industry. Just because someone wants a job in law it doesn't make them good enough.




Why on earth have you put Economics there? Nice to see your bias coming through. Just like Law Economics is offered at the vast majority of universities, Economics in particular certainly has an excess of graduates just like Law, but the fact that the career path of Economics graduates is less pre-determined is makes the plight of Law students more obvious. I know of Economics graduates from a range of universities who are out of work, or working in completely unrelated fields. I could quite easily say that outside of Oxbridge/LSE Economics is not a golden degree to have in regards to finding employment, just as you said about Law. So I have no idea how you can say that an Economics degree provides OVERALL better job prospects than a Law degree on a mass scale, considering the amount of universities which offer it but whatever this is going nowhere fast.

According to the HESA longitudinal study in late 2011 of those leaving university in 2007 61.3% of law graduates earned over £21,000 per year by 2011 with a median salary of £24472. That compared with 73.8% of social studies students (economics/sociology etc) who had a median salary of £26,000. Historians and philosophers had 59.8% earning over £21,000 with a median salary of 23,000. The proportion for all graduates was 71.5% earning over £21,000 with a median salary of £25,000.

I have used the figures which include both those with first degrees and those with postgrad qualifications because I first posted the first degree only figures but then wasn't confident whether the stats were treating possession of on LPC as a postgrad course so that the first degree people were those without LPCs.

[FDR]

(Original post by Tsunami2011)
Why on earth have you put Economics there? Nice to see your bias coming through. Just like Law Economics is offered at the vast majority of universities, Economics in particular certainly has an excess of graduates just like Law, but the fact that the career path of Economics graduates is less pre-determined is makes the plight of Law students more obvious. I know of Economics graduates from a range of universities who are out of work, or working in completely unrelated fields. I could quite easily say that outside of Oxbridge/LSE Economics is not a golden degree to have in regards to finding employment, just as you said about Law. So I have no idea how you can say that an Economics degree provides OVERALL better job prospects than a Law degree on a mass scale, considering the amount of universities which offer it but whatever this is going nowhere fast.

Students accepted onto a law course at University in 2011 - 22,768
Students accepted onto an Economics course at University in 2011 -7,800

I couldn't say for certain whether this amounted to there being an excess of economics graduates, however it's about the same as Maths, less than Computer Science, Engineering, or History (as well as a load of other subjects), whereas the only course with more acceptances than Law was nursing.

http://www.ucas.ac.uk/about_us/stat_...s/subject/2011

[Tsunami2011]

(Original post by nulli tertius)
According to the HESA longitudinal study in late 2011 of those leaving university in 2007 61.3% of law graduates earned over £21,000 per year by 2011 with a median salary of £24472. That compared with 73.8% of social studies students (economics/sociology etc) who had a median salary of £26,000. Historians and philosophers had 59.8% earning over £21,000 with a median salary of 23,000. The proportion for all graduates was 71.5% earning over £21,000 with a median salary of £25,000.

I have used the figures which include both those with first degrees and those with postgrad qualifications because I first posted the first degree only figures but then wasn't confident whether the stats were treating possession of on LPC as a postgrad course so that the first degree people were those without LPCs.

(Original post by FDR)
Students accepted onto a law course at University in 2011 - 22,768
Students accepted onto an Economics course at University in 2011 -7,800

I couldn't say for certain whether this amounted to there being an excess of economics graduates, however it's about the same as Maths, less than Computer Science, Engineering, or History (as well as a load of other subjects), whereas the only course with more acceptances than Law was nursing.

http://www.ucas.ac.uk/about_us/stat_...s/subject/2011

Accept both your points. All I will say is that this is TSR when someone claims that Law is one of the best degree to have you would generally assume that they are referring to the top/reputable universities. In my mind, If you're studying Law at a top university, I don't see how the value of the degree can be questioned or seen as a lesser degree to Economics. I can't see how the market for Econ graduates is any less saturated than the market for top Law graduates. This is going of the generalisation that most law graduates want to work in law firms/chambers and Econ graduates want to work in investment banks or management consultancy/accountancy. You really cannot compare a Cambridge Law or even Nottingham graduate to a London Met Law graduate when it comes to finding employment. Too many people take Law degree which is quite obvious but when the requirements range from A*A*AA to CDD it is to be expected. It may sound harsh, but I doubt students at the top universities studying Law will feel that they are in competition with students possessing A-Levels of CDD.

[Average Joe 1992]

an accounting degree is always useful

[nulli tertius]

(Original post by Tsunami2011)
Accept both your points. All I will say is that this is TSR when someone claims that Law is one of the best degree to have you would generally assume that they are referring to the top/reputable universities. In my mind, If you're studying Law at a top university, I don't see how the value of the degree can be questioned or seen as a lesser degree to Economics. I can't see how the market for Econ graduates is any less saturated than the market for top Law graduates. This is going of the generalisation that most law graduates want to work in law firms/chambers and Econ graduates want to work in investment banks or management consultancy/accountancy. You really cannot compare a Cambridge Law or even Nottingham graduate to a London Met Law graduate when it comes to finding employment. Too many people take Law degree which is quite obvious but when the requirements range from A*A*AA to CDD it is to be expected. It may sound harsh, but I doubt students at the top universities studying Law will feel that they are in competition with students possessing A-Levels of CDD.

The point you make is valid but we are in a data black hole here.

We have no idea what proportion of say UCL law graduates get training contracts. We make the assumption that it is higher than say Leicester, but we don't know and we don't know what those who don't get training contracts end up doing.

The only information we really have is one year's pupillage figures for which the results are quite surprising (Oxbridge excepted) but even there we don't know whether the pupils read law or whether all those Manchester Met barristers are 45 year old ex-Manchester Poly solicitors or retraining chartered surveyors.

For banking the position is even worse.

[Deep456]

(Original post by Tsunami2011)
A GDL is essentially the core contents of law condensed into a year's study. It is designed to provide someone with the bare minimum knowledge required to be a trained lawyer. It is a diploma, and the point which you continue to miss is that ANYONE can get onto a GDL regardless of what they study or where they study. For example someone with a 2:2 in History from Southampton Solent can get onto the GDL, but are unlikely to find any success later on. It would be stupid to claim that this all down to the competitiveness of the industry. Just because someone wants a job in law it doesn't make them good enough.




Why on earth have you put Economics there? Nice to see your bias coming through. Just like Law Economics is offered at the vast majority of universities, Economics in particular certainly has an excess of graduates just like Law, but the fact that the career path of Economics graduates is less pre-determined is makes the plight of Law students more obvious. I know of Economics graduates from a range of universities who are out of work, or working in completely unrelated fields. I could quite easily say that outside of Oxbridge/LSE Economics is not a golden degree to have in regards to finding employment, just as you said about Law. So I have no idea how you can say that an Economics degree provides OVERALL better job prospects than a Law degree on a mass scale, considering the amount of universities which offer it but whatever this is going nowhere fast.

LOOL, my bias. I think other people have already answered and shown you the statistics, Economics has a higher percentage in employment, larger median salary and far less graduates, I need not continue.

[Tsunami2011]

(Original post by Deep456)
LOOL, my bias. I think other people have already answered and shown you the statistics, Economics has a higher percentage in employment, larger median salary and far less graduates, I need not continue.

Lol forgive me for my error. After all your degree contains Philosophy and Politics. I'm sure those two will have employers chasing after you. Guessing you didn't fancy your chances at pure Econ.

[inceje]

Dance degree.