[kka25]

(Original post by Shearn)
UK law degrees are looked upon highly in Malaysia and getting a 2.2 from Nottingham would likely give you a bit of an advantage over someone from a comparable domestic institution.

Well, that had a 1/~200 chance of being applicable to you.

Source for this please?

Someone I know got just a pass from his Australian degree and I personally don't find that impressive at all; considering he's also an international student, well, that makes it more unimpressive. If you read through some of the threads on TSR, a 2:2 is still a 2:2 and a Third is still Third and it doesn't really matter where you came from. You don't get slack because you came from a particular Uni really.

Going back to the guy who did his degree in Australia and managed to scrap a pass, although I appreciate that he might have some difficulties in adapting to the country, culture, etc, but his degree does not reflect that he has managed to perform well. I'd rather him do his degree domestically and get excellent result from the bloody degree rather than paying thousands of dollars/pounds getting a crappy degree.

[PSxxx]

Notts are trying to bit too cocky, and it is totally possible that a quota scheme in place - there is NO standardised regulation that governs degree quality and award in UK.

Unis are left entirely up to their devices, often devious when awarding degrees.

Obviously they are trying to boost their own image with dubious marking schemes at the expense of their own students.

Don't really see what the fuss is with Notts, when I saw them marketing in KL and Singapore, it gave me that Saturday night feeling you know, the one you have just before one barfs.

So sympathy to you enforced 2.2'ers, and yes like the poster said - COMPLAIN, get organised and let your views be known.

Whatever you do - do play the compliant ' humble , good ' student and hope they have sympathy for you.
Most of all don't play the compliant humble international student waiting for them to grant you mercy - that is the reflex they are counting on

- cause they WON"T.
This is about them , not you.

[kka25]

(Original post by PSxxx)
Whatever you do - do play the compliant ' humble , good ' student and hope they have sympathy for you.
Most of all don't play the compliant humble international student waiting for them to grant you mercy - that is the reflex they are counting on

- cause they WON"T.
This is about them , not you.

Sorry, I don't understand what you wrote here

[PSxxx]

(Original post by kka25)


Sorry, I don't understand what you wrote here

IOW, assert your RIGHTS ( as lawyers I hope you understand this word ) to a fair Mark scheme and to put it crudely, do not grovel, be stern but detached( as if you were in a real court case), treat them as opponents not your friendly neighborhood lecturer.

[roh]

(Original post by PSxxx)
IOW, assert your RIGHTS ( as lawyers I hope you understand this word ) to a fair Mark scheme and to put it crudely, do not grovel, be stern but detached( as if you were in a real court case), treat them as opponents not your friendly neighborhood lecturer.

You're making the assumption here there is a mark scheme to be made fair in the first place.

Arts courses at university are, by their nature, marked subjectively. Mark schemes at A Level are roundly slammed by lecturers for not allowing 'freedom of thought', they are not going to change their entire philosophy because I, or anyone else without at least PhD after their name, say so. Whether this is right can be debated all day, but it is true.

[illusionz]

(Original post by kka25)
Source for this please?

Someone I know got just a pass from his Australian degree and I personally don't find that impressive at all; considering he's also an international student, well, that makes it more unimpressive. If you read through some of the threads on TSR, a 2:2 is still a 2:2 and a Third is still Third and it doesn't really matter where you came from. You don't get slack because you came from a particular Uni really.

Going back to the guy who did his degree in Australia and managed to scrap a pass, although I appreciate that he might have some difficulties in adapting to the country, culture, etc, but his degree does not reflect that he has managed to perform well. I'd rather him do his degree domestically and get excellent result from the bloody degree rather than paying thousands of dollars/pounds getting a crappy degree.

Would you tell that to a mathematician from cambridge? Some courses are harder than others. That's not up for debate.

[hiding12]

(Original post by Incoherence)
I just finished my exams a few days ago and tbh, the chances of me getting a 2.1 aren't good at all and it's really demotivating. I got a BPTC offer secured for next year but I'm still wondering as to the value of a 2.2 law degree from Nottingham. How much will that affect my job prospects in the future?

I hate to say it but with law, it will be very tough to get a legal training contract. I know because I got a 2.2 in Economics and the overwhelming majorit of jobs ask for 2.1's in Accountancy, Finance, Law in any subject. As ridiculous as it sounds, someone with a completely irrelevant degree who has a 2.1 is likely to be above you in the pecking order.

[nulli tertius]

(Original post by PSxxx)
Notts are trying to bit too cocky, and it is totally possible that a quota scheme in place - there is NO standardised regulation that governs degree quality and award in UK.

Unis are left entirely up to their devices, often devious when awarding degrees.

Obviously they are trying to boost their own image with dubious marking schemes at the expense of their own students.

Don't really see what the fuss is with Notts, when I saw them marketing in KL and Singapore, it gave me that Saturday night feeling you know, the one you have just before one barfs.

So sympathy to you enforced 2.2'ers, and yes like the poster said - COMPLAIN, get organised and let your views be known.

Whatever you do - do play the compliant ' humble , good ' student and hope they have sympathy for you.
Most of all don't play the compliant humble international student waiting for them to grant you mercy - that is the reflex they are counting on

- cause they WON"T.
This is about them , not you.

Please just run past me why, if say Nottingham has been apply the same standards for the last 60 years and others have dumbed down and started handing out 2:1s like Smarties, Nottingham students have any grounds to complain about their own university?

[PSxxx]

(Original post by roh)
You're making the assumption here there is a mark scheme to be made fair in the first place.

Arts courses at university are, by their nature, marked subjectively. Mark schemes at A Level are roundly slammed by lecturers for not allowing 'freedom of thought', they are not going to change their entire philosophy because I, or anyone else without at least PhD after their name, say so. Whether this is right can be debated all day, but it is true.

Difference is A levels are all set, marked and moderated by 1 board and much of their details are transparent and available to all.

One can see clearly how marks are awarded for each question.

The same cannot be said of Notts or any other university, so the student is more of less at the mercy of the Uni's attitude, which is in itself uncontrolled and unsupervised.

Buyer beware.

BTW, Science exams can be subjective and fixed too.

[PSxxx]

(Original post by nulli tertius)
Please just run past me why, if say Nottingham has been apply the same standards for the last 60 years and others have dumbed down and started handing out 2:1s like Smarties, Nottingham students have any grounds to complain about their own university?

Firstly, you're a Notts student/ alumni aren't you, so you would say that ?

What is the proof that they have been applying the same standards for the last 60 years ?
On the say so of an unsupervised, poorly regulated institution ?

No, thanks not for me, not in 1000 years.

[roh]

(Original post by PSxxx)
Difference is A levels are all set, marked and moderated by 1 board and much of their details are transparent and available to all.

One can see clearly how marks are awarded for each question.

The same cannot be said of Notts or any other university, so the student is more of less at the mercy of the Uni's attitude, which is in itself uncontrolled and unsupervised.

Buyer beware.

BTW, Science exams can be subjective and fixed too.

OK, so you want all unis (in spite of all teaching modules differently and with different content based on research interests) to set the same exam?

Yes, but you know that when you go. If you don't trust a uni's marking don't go to it, it's not hard. You don't buy the right to a 2.1, you buy the right to be taught by experts and have them assess your capability and if that assessment is a 2.2 you knew that risk.

Not like Arts, if I go into a maths exam and get everything correct it's hard to do anything than mark it as such as it is a quantitative subject, right or wrong. Law is very much a continuum in terms of how right or otherwise your essay is judged to be.

Just so you know, NT is an Oxford alum as far as I'm aware.

[PSxxx]

(Original post by roh)
OK, so you want all unis (in spite of all teaching modules differently and with different content based on research interests) to set the same exam?

Yes, but you know that when you go. If you don't trust a uni's marking don't go to it, it's not hard. You don't buy the right to a 2.1, you buy the right to be taught by experts and have them assess your capability and if that assessment is a 2.2 you knew that risk.

Not like Arts, if I go into a maths exam and get everything correct it's hard to do anything than mark it as such as it is a quantitative subject, right or wrong. Law is very much a continuum in terms of how right or otherwise your essay is judged to be.

Just so you know, NT is an Oxford alum as far as I'm aware.

I have ideas on how things should be but that is outside the scope of this discussion. However I'd dispute the assertion that degrees are based on research, some are, most are not. Also I wouldn't call them experts, what they should be are good teachers which many are not.

of course it is right that you should choose carefully, and I personally would never choose Notts cause I've seen their true attitude, so this scheme of theirs doesn't surprise me.

Arts degrees though subjective does NOT mean they should be marked without objective reference.

Science exams can be fixed too, the wrong applications are asked, or if the questions deviate from the syllabus too much.

What do you mean by this ? " NT is an Oxford alum as far as I'm aware "

[nulli tertius]

(Original post by PSxxx)

What is the proof that they have been applying the same standards for the last 60 years ?

I don't have any but I think it is more plausible that following the vast increase in the number of university places, average performance has not improved, other universities have dumbed down their degree standards and Nottingham's have remained constant to the alternative that the average performance of the top third of the ability range is greater than the average performance of the top 8% of the ability range, other universities' marking standards have remained constant and Nottingham have increased the difficulty of their degree.

On the say so of an unsupervised, poorly regulated institution ?

On the say so of an institution subject to the same level of supervision and regulation as every other UK HE institution.

[PSxxx]

(Original post by nulli tertius)
I don't have any but I think it is more plausible that following the vast increase in the number of university places, average performance has not improved, other universities have dumbed down their degree standards and Nottingham's have remained constant to the alternative that the average performance of the top third of the ability range is greater than the average performance of the top 8% of the ability range, other universities' marking standards have remained constant and Nottingham have increased the difficulty of their degree.




On the say so of an institution subject to the same level of supervision and regulation as every other UK HE institution.

Sorry, that's all subjective and from a Notts student/ alumni, so I will discount even more so since you try to hide it.

On the say so of an institution subject to the same level of supervision and regulation as every other UK HE institution - which is pretty dire, so same difference.

[nulli tertius]

(Original post by PSxxx)

What do you mean by this ? " NT is an Oxford alum as far as I'm aware "

He is right. I am an Oxford alumnus.

I have connections to other universities as well but my only connection to Nottingham University is swimming in Highfields Lido and going on its boating lake as a child!

And very occasionally it plies me with a free glass of cheap wine, funnily enough on the site of the old Lido.

[PSxxx]

(Original post by nulli tertius)
He is right. I am an Oxford alumnus.

I have connections to other universities as well but my only connection to Nottingham University is swimming in Highfields Lido and going on its boating lake as a child!

I see.

So what ? an Oxford alumni is privy to Notts's marks scheme and degree award policy ? And since you show affection for Notts, your opinion could well be biased.

[nulli tertius]

(Original post by PSxxx)
I see.

So what ? an Oxford alumni is privy to Notts's marks scheme and degree award policy ? And since you show affection for Notts, your opinion could well be biased.

And since you show hostility to Nottingham, so could yours. But only applying the standard of bias used by a litigant in person, that everyone who agrees with me is objective and everyone who disagrees with me must be biased.

The only data I am privy to is that which Nottingham publishes. Likewise the only data relating to Oxford to which I am privy is that publicly available.

[PSxxx]

(Original post by nulli tertius)
And since you show hostility to Nottingham, so could yours. But only applying the standard of bias used by a litigant in person, that everyone who agrees with me is objective and everyone who disagrees with me must be biased.

The only data I am privy to is that which Nottingham publishes. Likewise the only data relating to Oxford to which I am privy is that publicly available.

Come on, corroborating someone else's experience is " hostile ", you must lead a very sheltered life.

I am not a litigant, and I am NOT from NU, that's for sure.

Indeed it would be far better for ALL universities to make their MS's and all other relevant marking policy as transparent as possible including posting them online for their own students just like all the A level boards do.

[nulli tertius]

(Original post by PSxxx)
Come on, corroborating someone else's experience is " hostile ", you must lead a very sheltered life.

I am not a litigant, and I am NOT from NU, that's for sure.

Indeed it would be far better for ALL universities to make their MS's and all other relevant marking policy as transparent as possible including posting them online for their own students just like all the A level boards do.

At last we agree.

I think all universities should be obliged to publish their external examiners' reports. Oxford does so but most don't. Interestingly Nottingham does so for its School of Biosciences but not its School of Law.

The other thing that ought to return, is that all universities should publish their degree class lists. This was regarded as public information from the start of proper examinations at the beginning of the 19th century until the passing of the Data Protection Act. My results were published in The Times and are still available on The Times Digital Archive. I think a degree is a public status and each university should be publishing that information on its website.

[PSxxx]

(Original post by nulli tertius)
At last we agree.

I think all universities should be obliged to publish their external examiners' reports. Oxford does so but most don't. Interestingly Nottingham does so for its School of Biosciences but not its School of Law.

The other thing that ought to return, is that all universities should publish their degree class lists. This was regarded as public information from the start of proper examinations at the beginning of the 19th century until the passing of the Data Protection Act. My results were published in The Times and are still available on The Times Digital Archive. I think a degree is a public status and each university should be publishing that information on its website.

Will that improve things in any meaningful way ? the external examiner system is quite bogus, he has no power to affect anything, even if he did , why would he?

if he insisted that this and that be changed, then most probably his university will get the same treatment in return, tit for tat turns into outright collusion.

So no, for me full MS's and all other relevant marking policy as transparent as possible including posting them online for their own students just like all the A level boards do.