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Evolution and religion

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    (Original post by SexyNerd)
    well, it goes from mathematics -> physics -> chemistry -> biology -> social sciences.....
    What's this a hierarchy of?

    any how, the respiratory system still comes under biology, just like gravity comes under physics, although we use mathematics to understand it.
    The respiratory system as a whole is a biological system, but the things that occur within it are chemical processes. Gaseous exchange is simply diffusion under a different name to bring into the context of biology. In this sense it can be expressed mathematically, for diffusion this is known as Fick's Law or Fick's Principle. You cannot express "the respiratory system carries gases to/from the body/lungs" in a mathematical sense.
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    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    How do you not see that you belong to a cult? Seriously, Scientology sounds more rational than what you've just written. I'm not even joking or exaggerating.
    Haha - well, we can all bound around crazy language and say that people we've never met belong to "dangerous cults" across an internet forum. If you met me in person you'd find I'm a perfectly normal person (if there is such a thing, that is).

    Genuine Christians aren't ignorant and neither am I. And when I say that, I don't call you ignorant either, though it's sad when people think anybody who has a religious faith these days is a nutjob, which isn't true. Would you say that William Wilberforce or Martin Luther King were ignorant people who belonged to cults? If you do think that is so, how did they manage to do so much good for the world?

    ^ It is important to quickly say that when I give those two examples, I also accept that not all Christians are good people and you can be a good person without having any faith at all.

    I've come across many cults in my time (JWs, Mormons, Opus Dei, Scientology) and there's a whole different ball game going on there. I'm not seeking to brainwash anyone, but the OP asked for people's views and I gave mine. No need to get all personal just because you don't share my view - it's quite alright. I'd just rather not think that you think I'm a nutjob when I'm actually just an ordinary 17 year old kid sat at my computer whilst organising a social life for the Summer ahead after my exams have all finished. Not all religious people are crazy, 'kay?
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    (Original post by Gofre)
    What's this a hierarchy of?
    literature

    The respiratory system as a whole is a biological system, but the things that occur within it are chemical processes. Gaseous exchange is simply diffusion under a different name to bring into the context of biology. In this sense it can be expressed mathematically, for diffusion this is known as Fick's Law or Fick's Principle. You cannot express "the respiratory system carries gases to/from the body/lungs" in a mathematical sense.
    O.k, but you're avoiding the point, the respiratory system is a part of biology... It is a law that can be studied as a part of biology.
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    (Original post by SexyNerd)
    literature
    Huh?

    O.k, but you're avoiding the point, the respiratory system is a part of biology... It is a law that can be studied as a part of biology.
    No I'm not, you're just missing what I'm saying. Yes, gaseous exchange can be studied as part of biology but it is not a law of biology. Gravity is factored into determining how birds fly amongst the other forces, this does not make them parts of biology because they're just describing how physics principles apply to living systems.
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    (Original post by Gofre)
    Huh?
    What do you think it is a hierarchy of?

    No I'm not, you're just missing what I'm saying. Yes, gaseous exchange can be studied as part of biology but it is not a law of biology. Gravity is factored into determining how birds fly amongst the other forces, this does not make them parts of biology because they're just describing how physics principles apply to living systems.
    No, the motion/flight of an object is Physics, taking other things into account, bone structure, muscles, ect, would be biology..... The respiratory system is studied as a part of biology, thus making it a law which is studied in the field of biology.
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    (Original post by Gofre)
    More of a failed conspiracy than anything, look at the Kitzmiller vs Dover trial where ID basically gets labelled as creationism by a federal judge, ironically a Lutheran judge appointed by creationist George Bush and supported (until then at least) by Rick Santorum.
    What is the actual law in the states that allowed Kitzmiller to win that one? Reading up on that, I was admittedly entertained at the description of the defendents floundering to justify how they could teach children ID as an established theory, but my knowledge of american law falls short of actually understanding why they can't teach it. Is it just not allowed - end of story?

    Rick Santorum never could quite make up his mind about where on the scale he stood with ID and evolution. Completely inconsistent depending on what he thought people wanted to hear.
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    The Bible was written by tonnes of people, all living in different periods. Why should we believe a word they said? Making people believe the idea of Original sin seems like an evil idea in itself. Putting humanity on an enormous guilt trip about its own existence like that...
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    (Original post by Retrodiction)
    The brain is the centre of the nervous system... this is GCSE biology.
    It makes us about as special as any other creature which has a unique distinguishing feature.
    I'm sorry, I blanked out and was thinking of nerve nets and all XD haha .

    Yea, what differentiates us from animals in terms of brain structure? What makes us so special that we can think morally?
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    (Original post by SexyNerd)
    What do you think it is a hierarchy of?
    I'm not sure, that's why I was asking you to explain.

    No, the motion/flight of an object is Physics, taking other things into account, bone structure, muscles, ect, would be biology..... The respiratory system is studied as a part of biology, thus making it a law which is studied in the field of biology.
    A law being studied with biology does not make it a law of biology. You seem to be able to comprehend this with the bird analogy.
    Gravity and Air resistance= physics
    Wings= Biology

    In this analogy, diffusion is gravity and the respiratory system is the wing. Diffusion isn't actually part of the respiratory system, it's just acting upon it at sites where gaseous exchange occurs.
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    (Original post by sammy-lou)
    Rick Santorum never could quite make up his mind about where on the scale he stood with ID and evolution. Completely inconsistent depending on what he thought people wanted to hear.
    You've just described practically all American conversatives, save perhaps for Ron Paul.

    (Original post by Perseveranze)
    We don't believe in the common descent aspect of evolution, that Adam(pbuh) was or descended from ape-like/sub-human creatures.

    There may have been such creatures that existed during the time of Adam(pbuh), but we don't believe there's any evolutionary connection between the two.
    Although it is quite rare for Muslims to believe in common descent, I've seen the Qur'an interpreted in a way that doesn't contradict it.
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    (Original post by TheGrinningSkull)
    I'm sorry, I blanked out and was thinking of nerve nets and all XD haha .

    Yea, what differentiates us from animals in terms of brain structure? What makes us so special that we can think morally?
    The high level of organisation, I imagine. The same organisation that allows us to use language in the complex way we do, and to plan for the future etc. The amygdala is involved in emotional responses (I'm simplifying, but still largely correct), and ours is more developed than those of other animals, as are other brain regions. The human brain is the most complex structure in biology, so it's hardly surprising that it can produce more complex effects and behaviours than less complex brains.
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    (Original post by sammy-lou)
    What is the actual law in the states that allowed Kitzmiller to win that one? Reading up on that, I was admittedly entertained at the description of the defendents floundering to justify how they could teach children ID as an established theory, but my knowledge of american law falls short of actually understanding why they can't teach it. Is it just not allowed - end of story?

    Rick Santorum never could quite make up his mind about where on the scale he stood with ID and evolution. Completely inconsistent depending on what he thought people wanted to hear.
    Given its religious basis it violated the separation of church and state, which is unconstitutional. That coupled with its complete lack of evidence make it wholly unusable in science classes.
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    (Original post by Gofre)
    I'm not sure, that's why I was asking you to explain
    Science :sigh:

    A law being studied with biology does not make it a law of biology. You seem to be able to comprehend this with the bird analogy.
    Gravity and Air resistance= physics
    Wings= Biology
    so, because the law of gravity requires mathematics, means it is not a law of physics?

    In this analogy, diffusion is gravity and the respiratory system is the wing. Diffusion isn't actually part of the respiratory system, it's just acting upon it at sites where gaseous exchange occurs.
    respiration |ˌrespəˈrā sh ən|
    noun
    the action of breathing : opiates affect respiration.
    • chiefly Medicine a single breath.
    Biology a process in living organisms involving the production of energy, typically with the intake of oxygen and the release of carbon dioxide from the oxidation of complex organic substances.

    So, you were saying?
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    (Original post by Retrodiction)
    The high level of organisation, I imagine. The same organisation that allows us to use language in the complex way we do, and to plan for the future etc. The amygdala is involved in emotional responses (I'm simplifying, but still largely correct), and ours is more developed than those of other animals, as are other brain regions. The human brain is the most complex structure in biology, so it's hardly surprising that it can produce more complex effects and behaviours than less complex brains.
    So true, and we are yet to know many mysteries of the brain still. Will be nice when further discoveries and research are made.
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    (Original post by SexyNerd)
    Science :sigh:
    I know they're sciences, I'm trying to figure out what you're putting them into a hierarchy of?

    so, because the law of gravity requires mathematics, does not mean it is a law of physics?
    It is a law of physics because it can be expressed mathematically, that it the definition of law.

    respiration |ˌrespəˈrā sh ən|
    noun
    the action of breathing : opiates affect respiration.
    • chiefly Medicine a single breath.
    Biology a process in living organisms involving the production of energy, typically with the intake of oxygen and the release of carbon dioxide from the oxidation of complex organic substances.

    So, you were saying?
    This is getting really tedious now. Respiration is not the respiratory system. It is what occurs in the respiratory system. And furthermore this doesn't contradict what I've said at all. Yes, respiration is a process involves the intake of oxygen and the release of carbon dioxide. Do you know what mechanism this occurs through? Diffusion.
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    (Original post by Gofre)
    I know they're sciences, I'm trying to figure out what you're putting them into a hierarchy of?
    Maths being the foundation, the others stemming from it.

    It is a law of physics because it can be expressed mathematically, that it the definition of law.

    no, it is not the definition...

    law |lô|
    noun
    2 a statement of fact, deduced from observation, to the effect that a particular natural or scientific phenomenon always occurs if certain conditions are present : the second law of thermodynamics.

    This is getting really tedious now. Respiration is not the respiratory system. It is what occurs in the respiratory system. And furthermore this doesn't contradict what I've said at all. Yes, respiration is a process involves the intake of oxygen and the release of carbon dioxide. Do you know what mechanism this occurs through? Diffusion.
    But that doesn't change the fact that it is a part of biology... we need maths to understand physics, just like chemistry would be required to understand biology.
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    (Original post by SexyNerd)
    Maths being the foundation, the others stemming from it.
    Then you will hopefully see why I'm confused, because that bares absolutely no relevance to this topic.

    no, it is not the definition...

    law |lô|
    noun
    2 a statement of fact, deduced from observation, to the effect that a particular natural or scientific phenomenon always occurs if certain conditions are present : the second law of thermodynamics.
    You do realise that the two are practically synonymous, right? If something will happen every time with the exact same outcome then it can eventually be condensed down into an equation. You can't derive an entire definition from the one-line entry on dictionary.com, the world isn't that simple. Try and ask a physics student to define string theory for example and see if you get a concise one-liner. The chemistry textbook I used for my last piece of expanded on the basic definition you provided with "A set of observed regularities expressed in a mathematical statement".

    But that doesn't change the fact that it is a part of biology... we need maths to understand physics, just like chemistry would be required to understand biology.
    So you're saying gravity, as an element affecting flight, is part of biology?
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    (Original post by Gofre)
    Given its religious basis it violated the separation of church and state, which is unconstitutional. That coupled with its complete lack of evidence make it wholly unusable in science classes.
    Oh, I see. Very thought provoking that one - thank you for your patience!
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    (Original post by Gofre)
    Then you will hopefully see why I'm confused, because that bares absolutely no relevance to this topic.
    no relevance, when without maths, you wouldn't have physics, and with chemistry, you wouldn't have biology. :sigh:

    You do realise that the two are practically synonymous, right? If something will happen every time with the exact same outcome then it can eventually be condensed down into an equation. You can't derive an entire definition from the one-line entry on dictionary.com, the world isn't that simple. Try and ask a physics student to define string theory for example and see if you get a concise one-liner. The chemistry textbook I used for my last piece of expanded on the basic definition you provided with "A set of observed regularities expressed in a mathematical statement".
    for a law to be a law, it has to be observed. I agree but that is not the definition of law.

    I don't see how this changes that the respiratory system is a law of biology.

    So you're saying gravity, as an element affecting flight, is part of biology?
    where have i even insinuated that? but rather, we couldn't understand flight without maths.... just like biology without chemistry.

    So, the process of respiratory system is a law of biology in which we use chemistry to understand.
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    (Original post by SexyNerd)
    no relevance, when without maths, you wouldn't have physics, and with chemistry, you wouldn't have biology. :sigh:
    It has no relevance to each of those discipline's ability have laws.

    for a law to be a law, it has to be observed. I agree but that is not the definition of law.

    I don't see how this changes that the respiratory system is a law of biology.
    Because it isn't, it's a collection of tissues that facilitate the process of respiration. A physical entity cannot be a scientific law.

    where have i even insinuated that?
    According to you if an element of physics or chemistry is used in a biological system it becomes a law of biology, I was just following your logic.

    but rather, we couldn't understand flight without maths.... just like biology without chemistry.
    But it's not a biological process, it's a chemical one used by biological organism to enable other chemical processes.

    So, the process of respiratory system is a law of biology in which we use chemistry to understand.
    Do you by any chance mean the process of respiration?

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